Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

I'll add Cunningham Chiedozie Bart Williams Houghton Godfrey Castle to that list for starters . Some Frankfurter will likely mention JUDD as he tries to demonstrate what a young footballer is. Im hoping Zech turns into a Club Legend rather than some excuse of a dancing boy !

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

What makes you think the youngsters wont get us promoted ,
Are you more qualified than Richie Wellens ?

The Brentford model is underpinned by the best recruitment team in the country though. It's like saying I'd rather follow the Warren Buffet model for getting rich. They pick up cast offs they see something in that other clubs miss for pennies/free.

Don't really agree we only produce players to have careers elsewhere. There's normally at least 2-3 youth team players who have a crucial role in the squad at any given time, and these are the players we generally sell for the highest profit.

Gary the Plumber wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:14 am

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:08 pm
I'm no superfan but there is always a back story to someone like Alzate it's not like he was here 5 minutes and that particular Youth team was way beyond anything else we have had in many years.

Andy Edwards did indeed work miracles back then, I couldn't agree more. It obviously helped being a stable L1 club in terms of who you can attract but he has to be given all the plaudits for that. But that's still irrelevant to the affection nearly all Orient fans will have towards someone like Koroma, who stuck around and played a couple of seasons and helped win us a promotion, compared to that we have for the likes of Alzate, Dalby, Abrahams etc, who all cleared off after a handful of first team appearances. That's not really that contentious a view point, is it?

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:08 pm You dismiss our young talent like it doesn't matter - Obeiro is a real talent didn't take you long to jump on his back.

Are you fu*king insane? Have you even read this messageboard over the past few years? Have you seen anyone back up the young players on here as much as I have - be that Koroma, or Hector, or even the likes of Judd? You have got to be on a wind up.

How have I jumped on Obeiro's back? My point is that - much like with Hector - our fanbase are intolerant and not prepared to give these boys a chance, getting on their backs when they're not playing like senior pros at just 19/20 years of age.

Dalby, Alzate, Abrahams we’re sold for decent money, the club chose to sell them and had we had a decent offer for Koroma he would have gone too. At the time he hadn’t developed his game as much as the other three. Dalby wanted to go because he was being mucked about by the club, and we had really good offers for Alzate and Abrahams who went and furthered their careers it’s not a case of them “clearing off” it’s the way football works.

You are frequently on young players backs. Why single out Obeiro in your post, are you really expecting an 18 year old kid to “run the midfield” in 18 months time as you stated he is a terrific prospect he needs time and games to develop which is what Koroma had, but don’t kid yourself if we had a decent offer for him when the others went he would have gone just like Dalby, Alzate and Abrahams.
We do have many intolerant fans, your comments about younger players just clearing off show a complete lack of understanding given the sh*t the club was in at that time.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:13 am Dalby, Alzate, Abrahams we’re sold for decent money, the club chose to sell them and had we had a decent offer for Koroma he would have gone too. At the time he hadn’t developed his game as much as the other three. Dalby wanted to go because he was being mucked about by the club, and we had really good offers for Alzate and Abrahams who went and furthered their careers it’s not a case of them “clearing off” it’s the way football works.

I don't even know what the point you're trying to make is. Other than picking me up on my choice of language, by using 'clearing off' rather than 'sold on'.

Regardless of the reasons behind it, Koroma ended up playing 100 games for us, the other 3 barely scrapped 20 appearances between them. It is obvious who us fans will have more affinity with. Why are you trying to argue against that? Other than because it's me making the point.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:13 am
You are frequently on young players backs.

This is a lie. You are a liar.

Show me where I have been on the back of one of our young boys who has made it through to the first team?

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:13 am
Why single out Obeiro in your post, are you really expecting an 18 year old kid to “run the midfield” in 18 months time

Obviously not. Just as I wasn't expecting a 20 year old Hector to run the midfield last season. Yet I was still his biggest supporter on here.


Are you ok?

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

Brentfords money ball system relies on signing young, under valued players, as I understand it? Players that still need developing.

You have been saying we need experienced, senior pros ready to go up until now.

Gary the Plumber wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:04 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

Brentfords money ball system relies on signing young, under valued players, as I understand it? Players that still need developing.

You have been saying we need experienced, senior pros ready to go up until now.

Yup that's your Bonnes and Ekpitetas, they are ready to go and cheap to obtain compared to bringing the same player through an academy for best part of 10 years. The money you save on thr staffing etc. to develop those players goes into the first team.

It's one area where I agree with Ling that there s opportunities to exploit with a U23 side hoovering up those who aren't good enough for the Prem sides but could make it at our level . Trouble is whilst we're still a League 2 side it's a luxury that takes away from funding the first team to, you know, get promoted.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

What makes you think the youngsters wont get us promoted ,
Are you more qualified than Richie Wellens ?

Wellens' own words regarding needing quality players for starters. He's following the party line for now regarding the academy but the fact he dropped Coleman, Brown etc. straight away last season also told its own story.

As for evidence of the youth not doing the business, last season in a nutshell. Wellens is a quality manager, best we'll get for some time I think but he needs the depth of squad to be able to do his job effectively.

The funny thing with this is it's almost carbon copy of the discussion about how thin Jackett's squad starting the season was and we all know how that turned out.

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm

Gary the Plumber wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:04 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

Brentfords money ball system relies on signing young, under valued players, as I understand it? Players that still need developing.

You have been saying we need experienced, senior pros ready to go up until now.

Yup that's your Bonnes and Ekpitetas, they are ready to go and cheap to obtain compared to bringing the same player through an academy for best part of 10 years. The money you save on thr staffing etc. to develop those players goes into the first team.

It's one area where I agree with Ling that there s opportunities to exploit with a U23 side hoovering up those who aren't good enough for the Prem sides but could make it at our level . Trouble is whilst we're still a League 2 side it's a luxury that takes away from funding the first team to, you know, get promoted.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

What makes you think the youngsters wont get us promoted ,
Are you more qualified than Richie Wellens ?

Wellens' own words regarding needing quality players for starters. He's following the party line for now regarding the academy but the fact he dropped Coleman, Brown etc. straight away last season also told its own story.

As for evidence of the youth not doing the business, last season in a nutshell. Wellens is a quality manager, best we'll get for some time I think but he needs the depth of squad to be able to do his job effectively.

The funny thing with this is it's almost carbon copy of the discussion about how thin Jackett's squad starting the season was and we all know how that turned out.

KJ was the reason we fell apart, tell me did Coleman or Brown come through our Academy or were
" they ready to go types "?

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

Brentford are restarting their academy

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm

Gary the Plumber wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:04 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

Brentfords money ball system relies on signing young, under valued players, as I understand it? Players that still need developing.

You have been saying we need experienced, senior pros ready to go up until now.

Yup that's your Bonnes and Ekpitetas, they are ready to go and cheap to obtain compared to bringing the same player through an academy for best part of 10 years. The money you save on thr staffing etc. to develop those players goes into the first team.

It's one area where I agree with Ling that there s opportunities to exploit with a U23 side hoovering up those who aren't good enough for the Prem sides but could make it at our level . Trouble is whilst we're still a League 2 side it's a luxury that takes away from funding the first team to, you know, get promoted.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

What makes you think the youngsters wont get us promoted ,
Are you more qualified than Richie Wellens ?

Wellens' own words regarding needing quality players for starters. He's following the party line for now regarding the academy but the fact he dropped Coleman, Brown etc. straight away last season also told its own story.

As for evidence of the youth not doing the business, last season in a nutshell. Wellens is a quality manager, best we'll get for some time I think but he needs the depth of squad to be able to do his job effectively.

The funny thing with this is it's almost carbon copy of the discussion about how thin Jackett's squad starting the season was and we all know how that turned out.

Wellens played Brown

Lifelongfan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:50 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

Brentford are restarting their academy

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:30 pm Best young midfield player since Steven Alzate.

Several team scouts have been looking at him over the last couple of years. We are very lucky to get him to sign professional contract. Said to be very special

Anyone got a link to one of the videos he features in?

Just seen he played in the crawley game at the end of last season. Yeah, he was well alright.

It's easy to highlight Brentford a club that has done substantially well data modelling, and say lets do that. There are 91 other clubs now all trying similar. The reality is that it is much easier said than done. Orient speculated on Coleman last season as one for the future, many have their doubts. Even if we do purchase a gem, they can often depart for nowt at end of contract. Long term it will always be difficult for Orient to compete gate wise with the bigger clubs. Based in the capital, Orient are well placed to have a large talent pool to select from for an academy, personally I see it as the only way for Orient to thrive going forward. Why do all the big club have academies and under 21 sides?

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:55 pm It's easy to highlight Brentford a club that has done substantially well data modelling, and say lets do that. There are 91 other clubs now all trying similar. The reality is that it is much easier said than done. Orient speculated on Coleman last season as one for the future, many have their doubts. Even if we do purchase a gem, they can often depart for nowt at end of contract. Long term it will always be difficult for Orient to compete gate wise with the bigger clubs. Based in the capital, Orient are well placed to have a large talent pool to select from for an academy, personally I see it as the only way for Orient to thrive going forward. Why do all the big club have academies and under 21 sides?

Absolute common sense CS.

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:31 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:30 pm Best young midfield player since Steven Alzate.

Several team scouts have been looking at him over the last couple of years. We are very lucky to get him to sign professional contract. Said to be very special

Yep, people just need to be patient with him, I think he will be in and around the match day squad all season, far better than having a journey man pro bought in. I’m excited to see him develop.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:27 am We are located right within one of the best areas of the country for producing footballers and ties into our identity as a club heavily linked to the community it's in. Personally having academy players come through to the first team is a not insignificant part of the enjoyment I get from watching Orient - Koroma, Odubajo and Zakauni were my favourite players in each of the 'great' Orient sides I've watched. Would seem mad to scrap something that we're reasonably good in order to sign an extra senior player or two every season.

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

What makes you think the youngsters wont get us promoted ,
Are you more qualified than Richie Wellens ?

There's a lot of fans who think they're more qualified than RW.

banqo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:22 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:33 am

Would you rather get promoted because of having that extra depth or bring a couple of youth players through to have careers elsewhere? As you no doubt seen I only care for getting up the leagues and would rather follow the Brentford model in that regard.

What makes you think the youngsters wont get us promoted ,
Are you more qualified than Richie Wellens ?

There's a lot of fans who think they're more qualified than RW.

They can think it , the rest of us no the truth .

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:55 pm It's easy to highlight Brentford a club that has done substantially well data modelling, and say lets do that. There are 91 other clubs now all trying similar. The reality is that it is much easier said than done. Orient speculated on Coleman last season as one for the future, many have their doubts. Even if we do purchase a gem, they can often depart for nowt at end of contract. Long term it will always be difficult for Orient to compete gate wise with the bigger clubs. Based in the capital, Orient are well placed to have a large talent pool to select from for an academy, personally I see it as the only way for Orient to thrive going forward. Why do all the big club have academies and under 21 sides?

For many big clubs they don't really care if the young players make the grade as they've got large enough squads of pros anyway. The biggest clubs have a nice sideline in hoovering up players from other academies then selling them on to lower sides hoping they've got a bargain.

As for Brentford yes as a Premier League team they can start dabbling with sideline ventures. Difference is they've done the important bit and won the promotions, we're still a bottom half L2 side. Seems our fanbase are happy with that too.

As for the variant of "are you a manager" been there done all that back when we had to endure Embleton-ball. As said elsewhere in Wellens I trust and if we go back to end of the season he called out exactly what we need. As yet we're at least two quality signings short of meeting that.

we will be where wellens is hapy for the start of the season be it with our "kids" or new signings. Nothing else matters .

One of the side effects of brexit is a restriction on being able to sign youth players from european teams. So whereas the prem sides have been able to poach youngsters from europe in the past, they are unable to do this now. I suspect over the next few years we'll see a bigger squeeze on young english talent and we'll struggle to get the quality of players through that we have in the last 10 years.

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:32 pm
For many big clubs they don't really care if the young players make the grade as they've got large enough squads of pros anyway. The biggest clubs have a nice sideline in hoovering up players from other academies then selling them on to lower sides hoping they've got a bargain.

As for Brentford yes as a Premier League team they can start dabbling with sideline ventures. Difference is they've done the important bit and won the promotions, we're still a bottom half L2 side. Seems our fanbase are happy with that too.

You seem to have a right bee in your bonnet about us not adopting the Brentford model, don't you? If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

The biggest clubs don't have a nice sideline in selling their young players on to lower sides hoping they've got a bargain. The big clubs are hoovering everyone up purely so as to have more chance of finding the one or two superstars that will make their first team and save them tens of millions of pounds. They're not doing it so they can squeeze £25k out of flogging an Ebou Adams to Ebbsfleet.

But anyway, this nice sideline you've invented, where the big boys are selling these boys onto lower boys hoping to get a bargain - that's what you're advocating we do, snap up these bargains....

Your line of thinking doesn't stack up.

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:55 pm It's easy to highlight Brentford a club that has done substantially well data modelling, and say lets do that. There are 91 other clubs now all trying similar. The reality is that it is much easier said than done. Orient speculated on Coleman last season as one for the future, many have their doubts. Even if we do purchase a gem, they can often depart for nowt at end of contract. Long term it will always be difficult for Orient to compete gate wise with the bigger clubs. Based in the capital, Orient are well placed to have a large talent pool to select from for an academy, personally I see it as the only way for Orient to thrive going forward. Why do all the big club have academies and under 21 sides?

The big clubs do it because of the value of the end product they can produce - we can't compete with that.

The question to ask is why do all other L1 and L2 sides have acadamies and whether they should or not.

Gary the Plumber wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:18 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:32 pm
For many big clubs they don't really care if the young players make the grade as they've got large enough squads of pros anyway. The biggest clubs have a nice sideline in hoovering up players from other academies then selling them on to lower sides hoping they've got a bargain.

As for Brentford yes as a Premier League team they can start dabbling with sideline ventures. Difference is they've done the important bit and won the promotions, we're still a bottom half L2 side. Seems our fanbase are happy with that too.

You seem to have a right bee in your bonnet about us not adopting the Brentford model, don't you? If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

The biggest clubs don't have a nice sideline in selling their young players on to lower sides hoping they've got a bargain. The big clubs are hoovering everyone up purely so as to have more chance of finding the one or two superstars that will make their first team and save them tens of millions of pounds. They're not doing it so they can squeeze £25k out of flogging an Ebou Adams to Ebbsfleet.

But anyway, this nice sideline you've invented, where the big boys are selling these boys onto lower boys hoping to get a bargain - that's what you're advocating we do, snap up these bargains....

Your line of thinking doesn't stack up.

Mostly because Brentford were very much at our level in the very recent past so a decent comparison to go against. Going further back Bournemouth would be the other one, they bought up the best pros for their level and went up the leagues quickly. Yes neither had a Bechetti in the way I get that but with the investment T&T have brought into the club we have that opportunity now.

I think it was Man Utd that was featured at the time, I'm not saying 25k to Ebbsfleet more like 2 million here, 3 million there selling some of the players they hype up with a couple of random cup appearances off to a Championship side. In United's case not so much now they're in terrible form as a club but you get the idea.

To clubs that large youth teams are a small portion of their overall income and yes they can afford to gamble on even 40-50 young players, throwing away the majority in case one comes good. Even better if you can let the likes of Orient do all the donkey work from 11-18 then hoover up the end result for relative peanuts (Alzate perfect example)

Meanwhile we sit here with just enough pros to fill a first XI and bench when we need to be challenging for a top 3 spot. It's like Orient are trying to do Championship club things while the football team itself is still bottom half League 2. Get established in League 1 playing decent football then Ling can have all the U23 teams he wants!

Basically what it comes down to is the difference between "we're 3-0 up, let's give Pratley / Moncur a rest and bring on Obieiro to get a bit of experience" vs "it's December, we have no fit CMs, the fate of our season rests on you at 18, good luck"