Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Cavalier wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:48 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:36 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:12 pm Didn’t forest win the league title with something like 14 players and Liverpool with 13 or something crazy like that?

Yes, cos the modern game is exactly the same as it was back in the 70s.

Better pitches, softer balls hardly any physical contact.
Better transport links.
42 league games a season.
No penalty shoot outs in the Fa cup.
1 substitute.
Seems like a tougher time to me.
Still, people were tougher in general.

Why do you say that?

Did we ever drop Macauly Bonn for a game, thought he played non stop for us from the word go never missed a match.

J R Hartley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:39 am Did we ever drop Macauly Bonn for a game, thought he played non stop for us from the word go never missed a match.

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Your point is JR ?

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:10 pm

Cavalier wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:48 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:36 pm

Yes, cos the modern game is exactly the same as it was back in the 70s.

Better pitches, softer balls hardly any physical contact.
Better transport links.
42 league games a season.
No penalty shoot outs in the Fa cup.
1 substitute.
Seems like a tougher time to me.
Still, people were tougher in general.

An average L2 player of today would p*ss all over a top flight player of 50 years ago. There’s no comparison.

You could go out on the p*ss 5 nights a week and still win a World Cup in the 60s or 70s. Things have moved on.

Spot on. It is difficult to argue against this logic, but some will still try.

Embleton is just an average manager. Win 3 then lose 3 . His playing tactics and substitutes have sometimes been woeful with a lot of players playing out of position. The time to try these tactics is pre season not mid season. You have got to have a settled side and using subs only when you need to.

J R Hartley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:39 am Did we ever drop Macauly Bonn for a game, thought he played non stop for us from the word go never missed a match.

That true.

It’s also true that we weren’t playing 2 games per week, week after week, month after month, as we have done so far this season.

Saturday was our 18th game in the 2 months 1 week this season has been going.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:52 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:10 pm

Cavalier wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:48 pm

Better pitches, softer balls hardly any physical contact.
Better transport links.
42 league games a season.
No penalty shoot outs in the Fa cup.
1 substitute.
Seems like a tougher time to me.
Still, people were tougher in general.

An average L2 player of today would p*ss all over a top flight player of 50 years ago. There’s no comparison.

You could go out on the p*ss 5 nights a week and still win a World Cup in the 60s or 70s. Things have moved on.

Spot on. It is difficult to argue against this logic, but some will still try.

Can you imagine World Cup winning George Cohen trying to keep pace with James Brophy for 90 minutes? He wouldn’t get near him.

The game has moved on, as have professional athletes in all sports.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:52 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:10 pm



An average L2 player of today would p*ss all over a top flight player of 50 years ago. There’s no comparison.

You could go out on the p*ss 5 nights a week and still win a World Cup in the 60s or 70s. Things have moved on.

Spot on. It is difficult to argue against this logic, but some will still try.

Can you imagine World Cup winning George Cohen trying to keep pace with James Brophy for 90 minutes? He wouldn’t get near him.

The game has moved on, as have professional athletes in all sports.

What drivel!
Cohen would simply have been able to wait for the inevitable moment when Brophy cuts inside before chopping his legs from under him.

I feel that I need a rest from this Message Board- But there is naff all else for an oldie to do in " Lockdown ".

In fitness, nutrition, tactics yes, it’s a completely different game. But you are comparing bananas to lampposts. If George Cohen, using you’re example, had a years access to all of today’s fitness methods, tactics etc he would make Brophy look like a lower league two plodder-which he is.
I would argue that players of the past were actually better than players of today using simple mathematics. More people played football previously, therefore the pool of players was greater ergo to get to the top was harder than it is today.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:08 am In fitness, nutrition, tactics yes, it’s a completely different game. But you are comparing bananas to lampposts. If George Cohen, using you’re example, had a years access to all of today’s fitness methods, tactics etc he would make Brophy look like a lower league two plodder-which he is.
I would argue that players of the past were actually better than players of today using simple mathematics. More people played football previously, therefore the pool of players was greater ergo to get to the top was harder than it is today.

Mor people played football? Right oh.

Regardless, this is about the demands on an athletes body today, compared with 50 years ago. The human body cannot perform at its peak for 90 minutes, twice per week for a prolonged basis.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:08 am In fitness, nutrition, tactics yes, it’s a completely different game. But you are comparing bananas to lampposts. If George Cohen, using you’re example, had a years access to all of today’s fitness methods, tactics etc he would make Brophy look like a lower league two plodder-which he is.
I would argue that players of the past were actually better than players of today using simple mathematics. More people played football previously, therefore the pool of players was greater ergo to get to the top was harder than it is today.

Do you really think having access to tools and information is all it takes to improve people? If that's the case you could just give an alcoholic a self help book/course and resolve that. Or give a fat person access to a gym or a pair of trainers and a fitness plan and they'll become thin. It doesn't work like that though.

Just having access to tools, fitness methods and tactical information isn't enough. Would players back then have have even wanted to give up their days on the piss? While things are different now players back then still had a choice of working out and getting fitter after training ended. Or improving their knowledge and understanding of the game. How many took that opportunity though?

Not sure I get the point. No, players back then may not have wanted to give up drinking but if Arsene Wenger had been transported back in time he would have made them or they would have been dropped.

And if Arsenal Wenger had made them perform physically at the levels they do today, they wouldn’t have been able to play twice per week indefinitely.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:52 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:10 pm



An average L2 player of today would p*ss all over a top flight player of 50 years ago. There’s no comparison.

You could go out on the p*ss 5 nights a week and still win a World Cup in the 60s or 70s. Things have moved on.

Spot on. It is difficult to argue against this logic, but some will still try.

Can you imagine World Cup winning George Cohen trying to keep pace with James Brophy for 90 minutes? He wouldn’t get near him.

The game has moved on, as have professional athletes in all sports.

Absolutely.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:52 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:10 pm



An average L2 player of today would p*ss all over a top flight player of 50 years ago. There’s no comparison.

You could go out on the p*ss 5 nights a week and still win a World Cup in the 60s or 70s. Things have moved on.

Spot on. It is difficult to argue against this logic, but some will still try.

Can you imagine World Cup winning George Cohen trying to keep pace with James Brophy for 90 minutes? He wouldn’t get near him.

The game has moved on, as have professional athletes in all sports.

You mean the same George Cohen who George Best said was his toughest opponent?
Brophy better than Best?

I'm saying Brophy is a far superior athlete. And as a result is putting his body through more than a footballer did during the 60s (at least, on the pitch).

Things have moved on, Grandad.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 am

J R Hartley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:39 am Did we ever drop Macauly Bonn for a game, thought he played non stop for us from the word go never missed a match.

That true.

It’s also true that we weren’t playing 2 games per week, week after week, month after month, as we have done so far this season.

Saturday was our 18th game in the 2 months 1 week this season has been going.

IDK, when you consider the cup run too, we did have a lot of games in the season we came up - particularly at the business end of the season. But I guess when you're successful, players want to be playing. Not much danger of that under Embleton.

It is a silly comparison. To think that todays Leyton orient side would have run rings around the great Leeds United, Liverpool and Manchester United teams of the mid to late 1960s is quite ridiculous. They all had top class skillful players who would have made mincemeat of the current Os side. Lastly, are we to believe that Joe Widdowson would have had been able to contain the fast dribbling skills of George Best......as if !

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:54 am It is a silly comparison. To think that todays Leyton orient side would have run rings around the great Leeds United, Liverpool and Manchester United teams of the mid to late 1960s is quite ridiculous. They all had top class skillful players who would have made mincemeat of the current Os side. Lastly, are we to believe that Joe Widdowson would have had been able to contain the fast dribbling skills of George Best......as if !

Sid,
Coulson marking Greaves or Law.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:13 am
Regardless, this is about the demands on an athletes body today, compared with 50 years ago. The human body cannot perform at its peak for 90 minutes, twice per week for a prolonged basis.

That's why quality of the squad is important and one of our weaknesses that while we may have some decent upper L2 players in the first XI there's a lack of quality behind that.

Why Embleton didn't just swap Johnson for Wilkinson then JMD to fill Wilkinson's spot on the right in the normal formation is mystery of the day.

OyinbO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:47 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 am

J R Hartley wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:39 am Did we ever drop Macauly Bonn for a game, thought he played non stop for us from the word go never missed a match.

That true.

It’s also true that we weren’t playing 2 games per week, week after week, month after month, as we have done so far this season.

Saturday was our 18th game in the 2 months 1 week this season has been going.

IDK, when you consider the cup run too, we did have a lot of games in the season we came up - particularly at the business end of the season. But I guess when you're successful, players want to be playing. Not much danger of that under Embleton.

I don’t think people appreciate just how many games have been played.

Other than 1 Tuesday early in September, we’ve had a game every single Saturday and Tuesday between the start of September and now. That’s phenomenal.

Extrapolate that out over a full season and you’re looking at something like 80 games. Even the heroes of the 60s and 70s didn’t play that many.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:54 am It is a silly comparison. To think that todays Leyton orient side would have run rings around the great Leeds United, Liverpool and Manchester United teams of the mid to late 1960s is quite ridiculous. They all had top class skillful players who would have made mincemeat of the current Os side. Lastly, are we to believe that Joe Widdowson would have had been able to contain the fast dribbling skills of George Best......as if !

Fitness wise, they’d have been shot by the end of the first half.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:24 pm

OyinbO wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:47 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 am

That true.

It’s also true that we weren’t playing 2 games per week, week after week, month after month, as we have done so far this season.

Saturday was our 18th game in the 2 months 1 week this season has been going.

IDK, when you consider the cup run too, we did have a lot of games in the season we came up - particularly at the business end of the season. But I guess when you're successful, players want to be playing. Not much danger of that under Embleton.

I don’t think people appreciate just how many games have been played.

Other than 1 Tuesday early in September, we’ve had a game every single Saturday and Tuesday between the start of September and now. That’s phenomenal.

Extrapolate that out over a full season and you’re looking at something like 80 games. Even the heroes of the 60s and 70s didn’t play that many.

True, but I doubt we'll be playing with that intensity for much longer, as we drop out of the cup competitions. And let's not forget that all the other clubs have the same problem this season too*

*appreciate you're making a different argument, about the generational comparison

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:22 pm Germany & Japan both swear by it

Both lost the 2nd world war & yet
Are remarkably further ahead in the
World than here .

Maybe it is time to learn a few things from losing .

https://businessculture.org/western-eur ... n-germany/

http://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/AJ ... 10001.html

Daft analogy