Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Holloway's not best pleased

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08v2zsf

I make Holloway bang on. For too long Johnny Foreigner has been coming over here nicking: our sport and our clubs and wrecking the game's ethos.
How long before Man Utd or Liverpool etc, start playing home games in Malaysia or Hong Kong or USA? The whole Premier League is a Greed Fest. Time the Premier League fans in UK woke up to reality. Aussies with their grubby TV also a big factor.

Clive Evans wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:34 am How long before Man Utd or Liverpool etc, start playing home games in Malaysia or Hong Kong or USA?

Will it matter? For most supporters of those clubs they can't get/afford a ticket anyway. And with all the games kicking off at 10 different times over the weekend, where they are played is becoming less relevant. I can't say I care what happens with the elite clubs anymore, they only care about making money. Leicester City seem to be the only ones with any integrity.

Clive Evans wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:34 am I make Holloway bang on. For too long Johnny Foreigner has been coming over here nicking: our sport and our clubs and wrecking the game's ethos.
How long before Man Utd or Liverpool etc, start playing home games in Malaysia or Hong Kong or USA? The whole Premier League is a Greed Fest. Time the Premier League fans in UK woke up to reality. Aussies with their grubby TV also a big factor.

Xenophobia is alive and well.

JimbO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:16 am Holloway's not best pleased

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08v2zsf

Holloway: "Greed is disgusting, and that’s what I’m seeing everywhere. It’s absolutely vile."

I agree with him (except for the government taking over). Money going out of the game, fans getting ripped off. Game belongs to the people.

Problem I see is that the only other offer on the table to help bail out the EFL is £50 million from the premier league, and it's not even going to scratch the surface. This deal Will gaurentee that clubs survive however time is short clubs are close to going under and this deal if it gets ratified won't be done and dusted for some months.

Football has to change wether we like it or not, I think most people see the need for change but I would like the integrity of the EFL (in competition terms) remain. There are going to be so many battles over this Prem club vs Premier club, Premier clubs vs Premier League. Owner vs Owner and that's before we factor in in the fans.

After giving one and a half billion to the arts this week to help with survival costs the govement need to get involved and do something to ensure EFL clubs survive at least until football can sort out this problem otherwise we could lose a dozen clubs before the season ends.

RientO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:37 am

JimbO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:16 am Holloway's not best pleased

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08v2zsf

Holloway: "Greed is disgusting, and that’s what I’m seeing everywhere. It’s absolutely vile."

I agree with him (except for the government taking over). Money going out of the game, fans getting ripped off. Game belongs to the people.

Like Holloway agree about greed but there are also owners who are not fit and proper, the notion that the game belongs to the people is I'm afraid years out of date.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:58 am

RientO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:37 am

JimbO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:16 am Holloway's not best pleased

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08v2zsf

Holloway: "Greed is disgusting, and that’s what I’m seeing everywhere. It’s absolutely vile."

I agree with him (except for the government taking over). Money going out of the game, fans getting ripped off. Game belongs to the people.

Like Holloway agree about greed but there are also owners who are not fit and proper, the notion that the game belongs to the people is I'm afraid years out of date.

When did the game ever belong to the people?

For sure, it's the "peoples" chosen sport but they've never owned it.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:58 am

RientO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:37 am

Holloway: "Greed is disgusting, and that’s what I’m seeing everywhere. It’s absolutely vile."

I agree with him (except for the government taking over). Money going out of the game, fans getting ripped off. Game belongs to the people.

Like Holloway agree about greed but there are also owners who are not fit and proper, the notion that the game belongs to the people is I'm afraid years out of date.

When did the game ever belong to the people?

For sure, it's the "peoples" chosen sport but they've never owned it.

There was a time when football was very much the people's game and what fans thought carried weight and influenced the way the game was run, now it's of no consequence what fans think, it's big business at the top and a Labour of love the further down the pyramid you go.

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:05 pm Very surprised at Travis there, seems happy to sell the future of the game down the river for the cost of an artificial pitch and investing in the Hearn family pension pot (ground)

Or maybe as a successful businessman he understands the situation from a commercial perspective and is looking at it through that lens.

Would much sooner trust his view over some rent a quote gobshite like Ian Holloway

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:20 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:58 am

Like Holloway agree about greed but there are also owners who are not fit and proper, the notion that the game belongs to the people is I'm afraid years out of date.

When did the game ever belong to the people?

For sure, it's the "peoples" chosen sport but they've never owned it.

There was a time when football was very much the people's game and what fans thought carried weight and influenced the way the game was run, now it's of no consequence what fans think, it's big business at the top and a Labour of love the further down the pyramid you go.

I think you will need to give me some examples.

Start with Orient and the Rwandan Coffee Plantation Owner, The Ovendens, Hearn etc

I remain utterly unconvinced without evidence.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:32 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:05 pm Very surprised at Travis there, seems happy to sell the future of the game down the river for the cost of an artificial pitch and investing in the Hearn family pension pot (ground)

Or maybe as a successful businessman he understands the situation from a commercial perspective and is looking at it through that lens.

Would much sooner trust his view over some rent a quote gobshite like Ian Holloway

What is your basis for that trust in our current owners? Do you have some insight into where they want to take the club? If so, please share.

Holloway may be opinionated but that doesn't make him wrong.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:32 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:05 pm Very surprised at Travis there, seems happy to sell the future of the game down the river for the cost of an artificial pitch and investing in the Hearn family pension pot (ground)

Or maybe as a successful businessman he understands the situation from a commercial perspective and is looking at it through that lens.

Would much sooner trust his view over some rent a quote gobshite like Ian Holloway

Well you say that but in the next sentence he says how he runs the club with more of a fan hat on than a business one. The presenter tied NT up in knots with his next question about saying surely as a fan you'd want all clubs to have an equal say.

I'm sure Mr Travis is intelligent enough to realise that once you give the big 6 the voting power all bets are off. Travis talks about investing the money in the academy, if that's not slanted enough in big clubs' favour now (EPPP) imagine what it'll be like when they have the final say.

So if you take that £250 million between 72 EFL clubs that's just under £3.5 million each as the sweetener. That buys us 2 years of losses based on our accounts as it stands. Delays the inevitable but the changes the big 6 will bring in will hasten the demise of lower league football imo.

The FSA pours scorn on the “sugar coated cyanide pill”.

https://thefsa.org.uk/news/project-big- ... nide-pill/

Squires does the same...with his usual humour.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng ... h-football

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:20 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 pm


When did the game ever belong to the people?

For sure, it's the "peoples" chosen sport but they've never owned it.

There was a time when football was very much the people's game and what fans thought carried weight and influenced the way the game was run, now it's of no consequence what fans think, it's big business at the top and a Labour of love the further down the pyramid you go.

I think you will need to give me some examples.

Start with Orient and the Rwandan Coffee Plantation Owner, The Ovendens, Hearn etc

I remain utterly unconvinced without evidence.

I don't "need" to do anything not at your behest matey. In England post war in the 40s 50s and 60s fans flocked to watch the game, the pyramid was simple and the game relied on gate money. Fast forward to the advent of the premier league and it becomes more about TV money and commercial opportunities.

gshaw wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:23 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:32 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:05 pm Very surprised at Travis there, seems happy to sell the future of the game down the river for the cost of an artificial pitch and investing in the Hearn family pension pot (ground)

Or maybe as a successful businessman he understands the situation from a commercial perspective and is looking at it through that lens.

Would much sooner trust his view over some rent a quote gobshite like Ian Holloway

Well you say that but in the next sentence he says how he runs the club with more of a fan hat on than a business one. The presenter tied NT up in knots with his next question about saying surely as a fan you'd want all clubs to have an equal say.

I'm sure Mr Travis is intelligent enough to realise that once you give the big 6 the voting power all bets are off. Travis talks about investing the money in the academy, if that's not slanted enough in big clubs' favour now (EPPP) imagine what it'll be like when they have the final say.

So if you take that £250 million between 72 EFL clubs that's just under £3.5 million each as the sweetener. That buys us 2 years of losses based on our accounts as it stands. Delays the inevitable but the changes the big 6 will bring in will hasten the demise of lower league football imo.

The proposal also includes a minimum of £160 million a year from the Premiership tv deal with the wage cap and say £750k a year from that fund the O's could possibly be at break even in a couple of years so you can see why it would appeal to NT.

I think You are being diingenous to say mark chapman tied NT in knots on Radio last night. I thought both NT and Darragh McAnthony gave good lucid reasoning why they thought it was a good idea. For me although I don't like it and it needs clarification and gaurentees But I would rather this deal than nothing which is currently the alternative.

Controls in England. Recipe for disaster unless the controls are worldwide. We apply local restrictions and limits, the best players will simply move to clubs who are able to pay silly money. English football is just one small part of a global business and clubs are trying to compete globally. Money comes into to English football because the mega money deals make it attractive. Remove that, say goodbye to massive TV deals. Sky etc will just show more football elsewhere.

Don’t make it right, don’t make it nice, don’t make it fair. Us fans have never owned clubs and we certainly have never owned football. A romantic notion, that’s all. Community clubs suffer because the community don’t care enough to support them.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:32 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:20 pm

There was a time when football was very much the people's game and what fans thought carried weight and influenced the way the game was run, now it's of no consequence what fans think, it's big business at the top and a Labour of love the further down the pyramid you go.

I think you will need to give me some examples.

Start with Orient and the Rwandan Coffee Plantation Owner, The Ovendens, Hearn etc

I remain utterly unconvinced without evidence.

I don't "need" to do anything not at your behest matey. In England post war in the 40s 50s and 60s fans flocked to watch the game, the pyramid was simple and the game relied on gate money. Fast forward to the advent of the premier league and it becomes more about TV money and commercial opportunities.

Ok, ok back in your pram. Nobody is ordering you about. I'm simply asking you to defend your contention that football "belongs" to the people.

Back in the 40s, 50s and 60s the owners did exactly what you accuse the PL of doing. They were probably a but less ruthless but their motives were the same.

If you're going to argue for a "golden age" I need to see evidence.

Short term cash injection in exchange for control being handed to a "big 6". It's obviously bollocks but desperate chairman across the country will grab it. Another nail in the coffin for us mere mortals in division 4. Regionalisation and part time players beckons within 15 years.

Admin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:51 pm Short term cash injection in exchange for control being handed to a "big 6". It's obviously bollocks but desperate chairman across the country will grab it. Another nail in the coffin for us mere mortals in division 4. Regionalisation and part time players beckons within 15 years.

Maybe so. There aren't many countries who can sustain over 100 professional football clubs.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:44 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:32 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm

I think you will need to give me some examples.

Start with Orient and the Rwandan Coffee Plantation Owner, The Ovendens, Hearn etc

I remain utterly unconvinced without evidence.

I don't "need" to do anything not at your behest matey. In England post war in the 40s 50s and 60s fans flocked to watch the game, the pyramid was simple and the game relied on gate money. Fast forward to the advent of the premier league and it becomes more about TV money and commercial opportunities.

Ok, ok back in your pram. Nobody is ordering you about. I'm simply asking you to defend your contention that football "belongs" to the people.

Back in the 40s, 50s and 60s the owners did exactly what you accuse the PL of doing. They were probably a but less ruthless but their motives were the same.

If you're going to argue for a "golden age" I need to see evidence.

I said it was the people's game they never owned it but the clubs were driven by fans coming through the gates. Now the big clubs are driven by all things commercial, can't even start to compare owning a football club in the 40s-60s to now clubs had a far more community driven ethic owned by locals often players were local lads. Nowhere near where we are now.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:57 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:51 pm Short term cash injection in exchange for control being handed to a "big 6". It's obviously bollocks but desperate chairman across the country will grab it. Another nail in the coffin for us mere mortals in division 4. Regionalisation and part time players beckons within 15 years.

Maybe so. There aren't many countries who can sustain over 100 professional football clubs.

True dat - for as long as I can remember, various clubs have gone through periods of insolvency / rescue. Whilst the pass-the-bucket days are a little before my time, the near liquidations of the mid-1980s (10 minutes from bankruptcy in 86) and 94-95 were almost cyclical events. I can remember plenty of clubs in the 80's / 90's barely surviving (Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol City were fairly high-profile cases) and the FL / FA over the past 100 years couldn't find it within themselves (along with the clubs themselves) to ever put forward radical enough solutions to level the playing field and make clubs sustainable.

The advent of the PL back in 92 meant this point was inevitable. I'm more surprised that it's taken this long for a power grab of this nature to take place. It'll happen though. Maybe it won't happen now but it won't be long. Football has been broken for long-time. Any reference to a golden-era predates my knowledge.

The Country is on the brink of collapse and best The Premiership can do is to come up with a money making initiative ...... 0/10 for timing.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:13 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:44 pm

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:32 pm

I don't "need" to do anything not at your behest matey. In England post war in the 40s 50s and 60s fans flocked to watch the game, the pyramid was simple and the game relied on gate money. Fast forward to the advent of the premier league and it becomes more about TV money and commercial opportunities.

Ok, ok back in your pram. Nobody is ordering you about. I'm simply asking you to defend your contention that football "belongs" to the people.

Back in the 40s, 50s and 60s the owners did exactly what you accuse the PL of doing. They were probably a but less ruthless but their motives were the same.

If you're going to argue for a "golden age" I need to see evidence.

I said it was the people's game they never owned it but the clubs were driven by fans coming through the gates. Now the big clubs are driven by all things commercial, can't even start to compare owning a football club in the 40s-60s to now clubs had a far more community driven ethic owned by locals often players were local lads. Nowhere near where we are now.

If you are suggesting that years ago clubs were far more community driven, then I agree.

I hate the term community club now. They are not. No more than pubs are community pubs or cinemas are community cinemas. In fact the latter two are largely kept going by local community finance, football clubs are not.

People in the community don’t do enough to keep their club going. I suspect many people who watch games no longer live in the community of the club, but miles away. The term is used as a cover for limited success. I’m willing to be the top 6 do more good work in the community than smaller clubs too.

The term community club is a nonsensical romantic view. If the club was truly a value to the community then the said community would support it more. They don’t. It’s largely left to rich people as a plaything.