Independent Leyton Orient Forum

He certainly never let the side down when called upon.

We could almost certainly find younger and cheaper fourth choice midfield and full back cover.

EliotNes wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 6:56 pm IMO a squad needs players like him who can play in a few positions and step in when there are injuries/suspensions and do the job on the day, which is what he did at full back.

Sure but we could have just binned him off and had an actual proper full back in the squad and been better off for all the use he was in his proper position.

mildandbitter wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 6:51 pmJust to offer an alternative view. I have been working with a guy who used to play with Alex Lawless at York and he thinks he's an excellent player. When I told him that some fans were less than complimentary about him, he couldn't believe it. He also said that he would be a better player in League rather than non League football. My own view is that he was tidy enough, but didn't impose himself on games as a centre mid.

He's been a good player at this level in the past so it's not to do with ability or not being suited to the league. My view is that we haven't used him to his strengths while he's been here. Imo his best position is in a more advanced midfield role just behind the strikers where he's been effective in the past, but we've either had other options there or played a system that doesn't accommodate that.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:00 am

mildandbitter wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 6:51 pmJust to offer an alternative view. I have been working with a guy who used to play with Alex Lawless at York and he thinks he's an excellent player. When I told him that some fans were less than complimentary about him, he couldn't believe it. He also said that he would be a better player in League rather than non League football. My own view is that he was tidy enough, but didn't impose himself on games as a centre mid.

He's been a good player at this level in the past so it's not to do with ability or not being suited to the league. My view is that we haven't used him to his strengths while he's been here. Imo his best position is in a more advanced midfield role just behind the strikers where he's been effective in the past, but we've either had other options there or played a system that doesn't accommodate that.

@Millennial Snowflake
Good summing up.
Now we are going back to Division 2, I would guess that some new players will come in and some will leave as we try to move onwards and hopefully upwards. We were in an awful state when Alex Lawless and the other players came here and plugged the gaps.
Those players did the job they were signed up for and in fact exceeded all expectations.
So a big thank you to all those who will be moving on for the amazing job they did.

There is no room for sentiment in football. If you want success then you must replace average players with better players.
It’s a two way street players and managers leave to better themselves.

Redcard wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:58 am There is no room for sentiment in football. If you want success then you must replace average players with better players.
It’s a two way street players and managers leave to better themselves.

Blunt but true. Most pro footballers have a short shelf life and if you can keep in employment as a player till your mid thirties, then you are one of the lucky ones. So I guess that it can get a bit scary when it comes to an end if you have not put much money aside and have no decent job to go to.
I know in years gone by, soccer players often had a second job when they were playing, did trade apprenticeships when young, e.g the great Tom Finney worked part time as a Plumber. Many used to own small shops as a second income and something to fall back on when they retired from playing.

Better players? According to whom? Where are they coming from? We talk like they are queuing up to join us.

He has in my opinion his share of poor games, like everybody else in our Champion winning squad. But on balance when called upon, and despite perhaps not the match practice he would like, he has been OK. Contributed to our title without doubt.

But age is not on his side. A one year extension being used as backup is reasonable. His experience helping the youngsters in the squad plus able to step in when needed is no bad thing to have in the squad.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:00 am

mildandbitter wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 6:51 pmJust to offer an alternative view. I have been working with a guy who used to play with Alex Lawless at York and he thinks he's an excellent player. When I told him that some fans were less than complimentary about him, he couldn't believe it. He also said that he would be a better player in League rather than non League football. My own view is that he was tidy enough, but didn't impose himself on games as a centre mid.

He's been a good player at this level in the past so it's not to do with ability or not being suited to the league. My view is that we haven't used him to his strengths while he's been here. Imo his best position is in a more advanced midfield role just behind the strikers where he's been effective in the past, but we've either had other options there or played a system that doesn't accommodate that.

@Millennial Snowflake
Good summing up.
Now we are going back to Division 2, I would guess that some new players will come in and some will leave as we try to move onwards and hopefully upwards. We were in an awful state when Alex Lawless and the other players came here and plugged the gaps.
Those players did the job they were signed up for and in fact exceeded all expectations.
So a big thank you to all those who will be moving on for the amazing job they did.

He really hasn't done the job he was signed up to do, nor has he exceeded all expectations. That's just a ridiculous take on his 2 years here.

In JE's own words Lawless' time with us hasn't really gone the way he would've wanted but he's still ended up with a champions' medal and maybe still yet a double. Did a job when we were down to the bare bones but never excelled when given a starting spot. There's plenty CMs out there and we already have 3 RB's (if we can retain Turley) so we more likely will get someone from elsewhere.

It's a similar story with Charlie Lee, who has a bit more quality on the ball but only looked match-fit for a short time (before his second knee injury around the turn of the year). To give an injury-prone 32-year-old a 2-year contract very risky given we don't have many options in CM and already relying heavily on a veteran in McAnuff.

As above both players were signed on a bit of a wing and a prayer and to end up being part of a championship winning side is a massive achievement but if we want to push on in L2 CM is an area we need to improve upon, fresh legs required I think.

Indeed. In fact several of the older players were well below expectations, it has to be said.

Simply emotion overtaking logic. Look at Alabi's Twitter and you see people saying nonsense like 'look forward to seeing you tear up League 2' or similar where in fact everyone regards him as last choice as striker and nobody would care too much if he left.

If we had had another midtable finish this season I doubt that anyone would be clamouring for the out of contract players to stay. We're going up a level, and he would have declined next season because of age.

A couple of games at right-back where he was not the disaster people feared and he deserves a new deal? I don't think it has crossed the minds of some that it if he was a regular there, he would have ended been found out and teams started to target it, like they did when Sam Ling played there.

The 'oh, he is so good with the kids' just was a face-saving comment by the club. Mooney and Big George were terrifically nice blokes but when the opportunity came to get them out the club had no problem with doing a Boco on them.

For the money he is on, or even less I think we could sign a much better player now (as opposed to in the past). Similar to how Turley would never have the career that Elokobi had, but when it comes to current contribution there is no contest as to who is better for us.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 2:14 pm Indeed. In fact several of the older players were well below expectations, it has to be said.

It turned out pretty much as Ling said at the time. Some will be great others won't hit the mark. Would've been interesting in retrospect to see how JE would've done with the initial squad rather than Davis, given how he managed to end up winning promotion with the original CM of Clay, Lee and eventually McAnuff.

I felt sorry for Boco who actually looked decent and popped up with a few goals but was a victim of circumstance with the formation change early on it Davis' reign. Similar with Mooney, who had all the right intentions and his return did help lift the club but his lack of physicality really wasn't suited to NL thuggery.

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 1:54 pm

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:00 am

He's been a good player at this level in the past so it's not to do with ability or not being suited to the league. My view is that we haven't used him to his strengths while he's been here. Imo his best position is in a more advanced midfield role just behind the strikers where he's been effective in the past, but we've either had other options there or played a system that doesn't accommodate that.

@Millennial Snowflake
Good summing up.
Now we are going back to Division 2, I would guess that some new players will come in and some will leave as we try to move onwards and hopefully upwards. We were in an awful state when Alex Lawless and the other players came here and plugged the gaps.
Those players did the job they were signed up for and in fact exceeded all expectations.
So a big thank you to all those who will be moving on for the amazing job they did.

He really hasn't done the job he was signed up to do, nor has he exceeded all expectations. That's just a ridiculous take on his 2 years here.

Read again I did not single out Alex Lawless for praise I generalised and said....
'' We were in an awful state when Alex Lawless and the other players came here and plugged the gaps. Those players did the job they were signed up for and in fact exceeded all expectations.
So a big thank you to all those who will be moving on for the amazing job they did.''
I think as a whole that is true, to go from where we were with only a youth squad left to winning this league and getting promotion in just 2 seasons is quite amazing. Of course some of the rapid influx of new players performed better than others, but all in all a remarkable turnaround in such a short space of time was achieved by the ''New'' Leyton Orient team from Owners, management and playing staff.

Ok, fair enough. I accept that overall the players exceeded expectations but that's because some massively exceeded and brought the average up.

Some individuals were well below expectation.

Dale Gorman seems like the ideal replacement for Lawless. Especially if it means we can put Lawless' wages towards a first choice central midfielder.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:36 am

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 11:00 am

mildandbitter wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 6:51 pmJust to offer an alternative view. I have been working with a guy who used to play with Alex Lawless at York and he thinks he's an excellent player. When I told him that some fans were less than complimentary about him, he couldn't believe it. He also said that he would be a better player in League rather than non League football. My own view is that he was tidy enough, but didn't impose himself on games as a centre mid.

He's been a good player at this level in the past so it's not to do with ability or not being suited to the league. My view is that we haven't used him to his strengths while he's been here. Imo his best position is in a more advanced midfield role just behind the strikers where he's been effective in the past, but we've either had other options there or played a system that doesn't accommodate that.

@Millennial Snowflake
Good summing up.
Now we are going back to Division 2, I would guess that some new players will come in and some will leave as we try to move onwards and hopefully upwards. We were in an awful state when Alex Lawless and the other players came here and plugged the gaps.
Those players did the job they were signed up for and in fact exceeded all expectations.
So a big thank you to all those who will be moving on for the amazing job they did.

Absolutely, can't argue with any of that.

Constantine wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 5:42 pm Dale Gorman seems like the ideal replacement for Lawless. Especially if it means we can put Lawless' wages towards a first choice central midfielder.

Is that the same Dale Gorman who was pants all season?

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 pm

Constantine wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 5:42 pm Dale Gorman seems like the ideal replacement for Lawless. Especially if it means we can put Lawless' wages towards a first choice central midfielder.

Is that the same Dale Gorman who was pants all season?

He was indeed but judge him from August with a full pre-season. If he's still as unfit and off the pace at that point then we'll have to write him off as a huge error of judgement.

I reckon he'll come good this year, alongside Clay / a new enforcer CM

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 pm

Constantine wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 5:42 pm Dale Gorman seems like the ideal replacement for Lawless. Especially if it means we can put Lawless' wages towards a first choice central midfielder.

Is that the same Dale Gorman who was pants all season?

As of yet, Dale Gorman has shown very little good form at all, so at present, hard to quote his as an ideal replacement for anyone. As to next season, Gorman and also Alabi, well if they do show some improvement both players will perhaps be loaned out at sometime next season to a non league club in order to get some time playing rather than being sidelined again as both of them were for much of this season.

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 pm

Constantine wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 5:42 pm Dale Gorman seems like the ideal replacement for Lawless. Especially if it means we can put Lawless' wages towards a first choice central midfielder.

Is that the same Dale Gorman who was pants all season?

He was indeed but judge him from August with a full pre-season. If he's still as unfit and off the pace at that point then we'll have to write him off as a huge error of judgement.

I reckon he'll come good this year, alongside Clay / a new enforcer CM

I just wonder as to just how long a player actually needs to get fit enough to play football at National League level, especially when they are as young as Gorman ? It was not just his fitness that was an issue was it, he was just not very good, especially the accuracy of his passes !!
I remember MarK Lazarus coming to the Os from Crystal Palace in 1969. He was around 31 years old at the time and looked way off the pace and unfit at first but within around 6 games he was up and running and playing well and he was a right winger, a position where you have to be fit and fast !!

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 7:35 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 pm

Is that the same Dale Gorman who was pants all season?

He was indeed but judge him from August with a full pre-season. If he's still as unfit and off the pace at that point then we'll have to write him off as a huge error of judgement.

I reckon he'll come good this year, alongside Clay / a new enforcer CM

I just wonder as to just how long a player actually needs to get fit enough to play football at National League level, especially when they are as young as Gorman ? It was not just his fitness that was an issue was it, he was just not very good, especially the accuracy of his passes !!
I remember MarK Lazarus coming to the Os from Crystal Palace in 1969. He was around 31 years old at the time and looked way off the pace and unfit at first but within around 6 games he was up and running and playing well and he was a right winger, a position where you have to be fit and fast !!

Coming back from injury he looked really off the pace for the blood and thunder of NL. There is something there as you could see him looking for a forward pass or shot but the radar was well off.

He does need to get over his fear of re-injury as was fairly obvious he was pulling out of 50:50 challenges and generally looked a bit lightweight.

Let's see him given every opportunity to show what he can do as I can't see 3 CMs coming in otherwise.

[quote=gshaw post_

Coming back from injury he looked really off the pace for the blood and thunder of NL. There is something there as you could see him looking for a forward pass or shot but the radar was well off.

He does need to get over his fear of re-injury as was fairly obvious he was pulling out of 50:50 challenges and generally looked a bit lightweight.

Let's see him given every opportunity to show what he can do as I can't see 3 CMs coming in otherwise.
[/quote]
Gorman was a very strange signing, we needed a strong, steady holding midfielder to replace Adams, and we got Gorman, a young player yet to recover from a broken ankle injury. Strange also was the indication that the powers to be thought him just as good as Adams and maybe even better !!

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 pm

Constantine wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 5:42 pm Dale Gorman seems like the ideal replacement for Lawless. Especially if it means we can put Lawless' wages towards a first choice central midfielder.

Is that the same Dale Gorman who was pants all season?

He was indeed but judge him from August with a full pre-season. If he's still as unfit and off the pace at that point then we'll have to write him off as a huge error of judgement.

I reckon he'll come good this year, alongside Clay / a new enforcer CM

Agreed with everything you say.

Sid, give him preseason and see how he goes. Plenty on here slagged off Clay yet he was without doubt one of our best players this past season after having a full pre season and a better understanding of what his manager wanted from him.

I believe Gorman will be the same next season.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 8:32 pm Sid, give him preseason and see how he goes. Plenty on here slagged off Clay yet he was without doubt one of our best players this past season after having a full pre season and a better understanding of what his manager wanted from him.

I believe Gorman will be the same next season.

Really hope you are correct. Big difference was that even though Clay was not that great in his first season with us, he still played in nearly every game. Gorman hardly figured this season, also does not look strong enough to be a solid, ball winning, holding central midfielder.
We saw what a good player looked like in that position when Adams came here on loan. Such a pity Adams listened too much to his agent.