Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Oh , and one more thing those footballers who couldn’t make it today played with real leather footballs not the lightweight balloons used today.

Redcard wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:53 am Oh , and one more thing those footballers who couldn’t make it today played with real leather footballs not the lightweight balloons used today.

Erm, balls today are heavier than before!

Just looked this guy up on YouTube. The defending is comical or non existent, everyone just falling over all the time and the same goes for the goalkeeping.

Spen, while the weight of a football has remained consistent, the old leather footballs absorbed water and held a coating of mud, which unlike today’s synthetic balls made them very much heavier.

Prestige worldwide , if you want to see comical defending and laughable goalkeeping then look no further than today’s premiership goal by burnley direct from a corner.

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 am i would never challange the abilities and greatness of other footballers such as Dixie Dean or Brian Clough. The only thing i would say is that all Greaves professional league goals were in the top divisions of both England and Italy. Smendrick i'm a older person tell me what you value someone lets say Harry Kane in todays market?
Red O. Its pretty obvious you know nothing about football because if you think Jimmy Greaves could not play in this era you are a fool. All the superstars of the past are born with a talent that would play in any era.They have a GIFT! its called GREATNESS!!

He’s a piss head.

He doesn’t have the application and drive that the players in the current era have.

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 pm

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 am i would never challange the abilities and greatness of other footballers such as Dixie Dean or Brian Clough. The only thing i would say is that all Greaves professional league goals were in the top divisions of both England and Italy. Smendrick i'm a older person tell me what you value someone lets say Harry Kane in todays market?
Red O. Its pretty obvious you know nothing about football because if you think Jimmy Greaves could not play in this era you are a fool. All the superstars of the past are born with a talent that would play in any era.They have a GIFT! its called GREATNESS!!

He’s a p*ss head.

He doesn’t have the application and drive that the players in the current era have.

Stop embarrassing yourself!

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 am i would never challange the abilities and greatness of other footballers such as Dixie Dean or Brian Clough. The only thing i would say is that all Greaves professional league goals were in the top divisions of both England and Italy. Smendrick i'm a older person tell me what you value someone lets say Harry Kane in todays market?
Red O. Its pretty obvious you know nothing about football because if you think Jimmy Greaves could not play in this era you are a fool. All the superstars of the past are born with a talent that would play in any era.They have a GIFT! its called GREATNESS!!

Totally agree with this, Awks.

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 pm

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 am i would never challange the abilities and greatness of other footballers such as Dixie Dean or Brian Clough. The only thing i would say is that all Greaves professional league goals were in the top divisions of both England and Italy. Smendrick i'm a older person tell me what you value someone lets say Harry Kane in todays market?
Red O. Its pretty obvious you know nothing about football because if you think Jimmy Greaves could not play in this era you are a fool. All the superstars of the past are born with a talent that would play in any era.They have a GIFT! its called GREATNESS!!

He’s a p*ss head.

He doesn’t have the application and drive that the players in the current era have.

And the quality of players is far far higher than it was 60 years ago. Even thinking of the gap back to the early 1990s the difference is huge. How many genuine top level players would Greaves have played against 60 years ago? Can probably count on the fingers of one hand. Compare that to nowadays when you have the number of top level talents from all over the world in the top flight.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:30 am The great players of yesterday year would be great players today. The same desires would exist, the same God given talent would be there married to today's medical science and fitness and they would be top players today and tomorrow.

How do you know they would have wanted/been able to commit to the same levels? Kane was used as an example - the guy without doubt can do it at the top level now. No guarantee that golden oldies could. If getting that fit was as easy as you say then we'd all be able to do it given the advances in technology and sport science.

I'll use the article I referred to at the start as an example. Greaves couldn't cope with Milan being a more disciplined club or having to track back or go wide. That's a huge alarm bell for not being suited to the modern game, particularly the lack of discipline.

The true greats the like of greaves and best would transcend any era, just like boxing greats like Ali, sugar ray robinson, Willie pepp, and Archie Moore . Yesteryears forwards had to evade and ride the tackles of hatchet men who made Vinny Jones look like a whimp, not today’s shirtpullers.

So to summarise

The case for Greaves...
1) Good players will have been able to adapt and embrace the modern game
2) Hatchetmen also played during his time

The case against Greaves
1) No guarantee he would have adapted or been committed enough to modern techniques or fitness requirements
2) He was bombed out at Milan because he was indisciplined, which is a useful sample that suggest he wouldn't translate into being as successful in the modern game
3) He played against players with a much lower level of competency and fitness
4) The top flight is far improved since then, with elite level talent from around the world, which was not the case during Greaves' time
5) His lifestyle was compatible with football in the 60s but not the current day

Very one sided this and only hearing the same old intangibles in the case for him again and again.

As nice a man that Jimmy is i thought he was an old fashion goal poacher , just my opinion of course but I reckon today's strikers ( excluding Orients ) are more skillful .

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:30 am The great players of yesterday year would be great players today. The same desires would exist, the same God given talent would be there married to today's medical science and fitness and they would be top players today and tomorrow.

Of course, to argue otherwise is as silly as saying that Elisabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe would not be classed as beautiful women if they had been born in this day and age. People who are gifted in one way or another, would be gifted in any era.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:50 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:30 am The great players of yesterday year would be great players today. The same desires would exist, the same God given talent would be there married to today's medical science and fitness and they would be top players today and tomorrow.

Of course, to argue otherwise is as silly as saying that Elisabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe would not be classed as beautiful women if they had been born in this day and age. People who are gifted in one way or another, would be gifted in any era.

That's a ridiculous comparison it's also not as simple as that when there's so much more to football now than then. The game has moved on.

For example, look at top scorers in the top division. In 1960 a whopping 17 players scored 20 or more goals, presumably in a 46 game top flight. Adjusting to average per game (0.43 per game), if you look at the number of top flight players who scored 16 or more last season there are only 8 players, with those players having a closer distribution of goals. That should tell you all you need to know about the game being tougher now than then.

BIGRON wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:33 pm As nice a man that Jimmy is i thought he was an old fashion goal poacher , just my opinion of course but I reckon today's strikers ( excluding Orients ) are more skillful .

He certainly lacked skill the day he beat five players and slotted the ball past the keeper, all goal poachers can do that.

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm There one lot of hypothesis hot air as usual on here -
Just accept what people saw and imagine my friends - and leave it at that he was great- period.

It's a bit like saying the Rolling Stones nicked all the blues riffs and if they started out 40 years later would just make it as a lousy pub band because the standard of music is mixed to sound more complex

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:08 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm There one lot of hypothesis hot air as usual on here -
Just accept what people saw and imagine my friends - and leave it at that he was great- period.

It's a bit like saying the Rolling Stones nicked all the blues riffs and if they started out 40 years later would just make it as a lousy pub band because the standard of music is mixed to sound more complex

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

That’s exactly not it.

It’s nothing but oldies looking back through rose tinted glasses and with a massive dose of nostalgia.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:08 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:46 pm There one lot of hypothesis hot air as usual on here -
Just accept what people saw and imagine my friends - and leave it at that he was great- period.

It's a bit like saying the Rolling Stones nicked all the blues riffs and if they started out 40 years later would just make it as a lousy pub band because the standard of music is mixed to sound more complex

Uppy, that's exactly it. Some younger fans just can't accept what older fans saw in the past. They've been brought up to believe it's all exaggerated, imagined and inferior. A touch of arrogance and even jealousy, you could say. Freesburg is one of them.
Notice in his first post, second paragraph where he says an 'old person' instead of older, and how the sentence is tinged with sarcasm and derision. People like him just cannot sit back and simply say, ' what a striker he must have been with a record like that.' It's because it's not from his era. He was never there. England's greatest goalscorer of all time, we're talking about.
Yes,it's nothing but sheer arrogance.

You're adding nothing new (aside from having a dig), just repeating the same old. The reason I don't sit back as you say is because I'm able to critically assess and come to my conclusion rather than listen to biased views of people who came from a time when they believed everything was better.

Two modern day players and one of Greaves' contemporsries scored more goals for England so the claim that he was "England's greatest goalscorer" is another inaccurate claim too.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:27 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 pm

AckneyAwks wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 am i would never challange the abilities and greatness of other footballers such as Dixie Dean or Brian Clough. The only thing i would say is that all Greaves professional league goals were in the top divisions of both England and Italy. Smendrick i'm a older person tell me what you value someone lets say Harry Kane in todays market?
Red O. Its pretty obvious you know nothing about football because if you think Jimmy Greaves could not play in this era you are a fool. All the superstars of the past are born with a talent that would play in any era.They have a GIFT! its called GREATNESS!!

He’s a p*ss head.

He doesn’t have the application and drive that the players in the current era have.

And the quality of players is far far higher than it was 60 years ago. Even thinking of the gap back to the early 1990s the difference is huge. How many genuine top level players would Greaves have played against 60 years ago? Can probably count on the fingers of one hand. Compare that to nowadays when you have the number of top level talents from all over the world in the top flight.

That’s you option and in mine you are talking absolute tosh. There are about 400 players in the premier league show me 10% who are top talents, cos I could count to about ten and then it will become hard. I await your list.

The second point you make is about strikers and how many scored 20+ in 1970. There are less today as there is less talent than back then. Strikers cost a premium cos there ain’t many around! Think about it.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:27 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 pm

He’s a p*ss head.

He doesn’t have the application and drive that the players in the current era have.

And the quality of players is far far higher than it was 60 years ago. Even thinking of the gap back to the early 1990s the difference is huge. How many genuine top level players would Greaves have played against 60 years ago? Can probably count on the fingers of one hand. Compare that to nowadays when you have the number of top level talents from all over the world in the top flight.

That’s you option and in mine you are talking absolute tosh. There are about 400 players in the premier league show me 10% who are top talents, cos I could count to about ten and then it will become hard. I await your list.

The second point you make is about strikers and how many scored 20+ in 1970. There are less today as there is less talent than back then. Strikers cost a premium cos there ain’t many around! Think about it.

How old are you, Thory?

Astounding from Thor. So players scored more goals back then because they were better, not because the overall standard now is so much higher that goals are harder to score

Not as old as you!

So your saying pele and Co would not fit in today’s game as well then?

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:38 pm Astounding from Thor. So players scored more goals back then because they were better, not because the overall standard now is so much higher that goals are harder to score

That’s a different argument, my point still stands, he would have been great in any era. Still waiting for you to point out all these amazing talents in the premier league, there are some, but not many.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:39 pm Not as old as you!

So your saying pele and Co would not fit in today’s game as well then?

There’s no comparison between pele and Ginny Greaves.