Independent Leyton Orient Forum

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 am

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

What does the lose £400k bit mean?

I just can't get my head around these numbers. What have we got, 20 senior pros? Earning an average of say £75k, so that's £1.5m. Rent to Hearn is still £180k, isn't it?

What is the other £5.3m being spent on?

We don't turn over £7m so its not £5.3m; £1.5m was our player spend 4-5 years ago - but you are right there are plenty of costs that fill the void between playing staff and overall costs.

I'd guess it costs £20-30k to put a home game on; £5k for an away game (if not local). That's probably the fat end of £1m before the cost of buying beer for the stands. The youth and development networks probably cost several hundred thousand too. 30 admin staff at £25k each is £750k. I've probably found about £2m there...

Oh and whilst we take in an estimated £1.5m in ticket sales, £250k of that is VAT so its really £1.25m

Thor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:51 pm Redo I coach at an academy and it’s more than expenses, it’s an hourly rate plus kit etc.

Of course they'll get a training top thrown in.

These poxy 'academies' that are springing up everywhere are different. It's not the same at a proper football club.

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:11 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 am

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

What does the lose £400k bit mean?

I just can't get my head around these numbers. What have we got, 20 senior pros? Earning an average of say £75k, so that's £1.5m. Rent to Hearn is still £180k, isn't it?

What is the other £5.3m being spent on?

We don't turn over £7m so its not £5.3m; £1.5m was our player spend 4-5 years ago - but you are right there are plenty of costs that fill the void between playing staff and overall costs.

I'd guess it costs £20-30k to put a home game on; £5k for an away game (if not local). That's probably the fat end of £1m before the cost of buying beer for the stands. The youth and development networks probably cost several hundred thousand too. 30 admin staff at £25k each is £750k. I've probably found about £2m there...

What?

Its helps if we dont appoint a manager with zero current L2 experience and sack him in a month, whilst paying him his total contracted salary (as reported by Travis) - thats about £100K down the drain.

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 am

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

What does the lose £400k bit mean?

I just can't get my head around these numbers. What have we got, 20 senior pros? Earning an average of say £75k, so that's £1.5m. Rent to Hearn is still £180k, isn't it?

What is the other £5.3m being spent on?

If you said 25 players @ £1500 is 100k short of £2 million.
Say a 100k on Ross & Brill.

Then you have to feed all those players
You have training kit training facilities
Staff to do the food , staff to deal with laundry .
All the bits & bobs that go into training.

Then there is the youth set up so you are probably
Looking at £750k to £1 million to run with all the same things needed.

Then you have as said the support staff for the company.
So if you said 20 @ 25k .

Then you have to factor in physio staff , medical equipment
Computer support to deal with all those things .
Not just the Bandages sprays ointments etc , none of that stuff is cheap.

Then there is a gym that has to be paid for , all no doubt top spec & not your cheap option from
Argos .

Add to that travel for away games , overnights for a hotel booked weeks/months
in advance for 30 people + .
Coach travel , etc

Then you have pitch up keep & maintenance , stadium maintenance ( not the roof )
Cleaning the place up etc .


Then probably 1 of the biggest unseen spends in Football

Insurance against damage to your players .
To cover injury to them or neglience by a club etc.

Insurance on accidents caused to supporters in event of
accidents etc

Stewarding/policing

Then your basic admin

Ticketing etc .

All this stuff adds up .

Its not just a fee for players .

Ask any buisness owner be it car repair or banking

You dont just pay for the staff, there are a huge amount of unrelated stuff to lay for.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:07 pm Amazingly Walsall are near this £7m mark (£6.6m). This is break-even for them (although it seems expenditures can be dialled down to match turnover, they are always in balance), so perhaps we are running on the same cost structures. Their commercial operations must be incredible.

Walsall make a fair wedge out of renting hospitality suites for events. You know, like Orient were meant to do in the West Stand before Hearn pulled a(nother) fast one.

It's been said the youth system costs 500k per year to run. If we didn't get up last year remember there was the talk of it being pulled as the cost was prohibitive once we lost the efl grant of whatever it is to help with it.

slacker wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:46 pm

eagwgw wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:07 pm Amazingly Walsall are near this £7m mark (£6.6m). This is break-even for them (although it seems expenditures can be dialled down to match turnover, they are always in balance), so perhaps we are running on the same cost structures. Their commercial operations must be incredible.

Walsall make a fair wedge out of renting hospitality suites for events. You know, like Orient were meant to do in the West Stand before Hearn pulled a(nother) fast one.

They are very well located within the UK motorway structure which allows easy access for attendees at those conferences/events.

This is why Orient should move to Romford. Closer to M25 etc.

We should move TO the M25 and operate like a service station.

You don’t pay tax on losses...

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:45 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 am

LittleMate wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:48 am To put it in a bit of perspective, 5000 season tickets averaged at £300 each is only £1.5m....being a league 2 member is also worth £1m.

I suspect we only turn over £5-£5.5 as per eagwgw and lose £400k. The cost of breaking even is another £1.5-2m turnover.

When you visualise numbers like these, I find it hard to accept criticism of the ownership. You'd have to be mad or stupid to own a football club.

What does the lose £400k bit mean?

I just can't get my head around these numbers. What have we got, 20 senior pros? Earning an average of say £75k, so that's £1.5m. Rent to Hearn is still £180k, isn't it?

What is the other £5.3m being spent on?

If you said 25 pkayers @ £1500 is 100k short of £2 million.
Say a 100k on Ross & Brill.

Then you have to feed all those players
You have training kit training facilities
Staff to do the food , staff to deal with laundry .
All the bits & bobs that go into training.

Then there is the youth set up so you are probably
Looking at £750k to £1 million to run with all the same things needed.

Then you have as said the support staff for the company.
So if you said 20 @ 25k .

Then you have to factor in physio staff , medical equipment
Computer support to deal with all those things .
Not just the Bandages sprays ointments etc , none of that stuff is cheap.

Then there is a gym that has to be paid for , all no doubt top spec & not your cheap option from
Argos .

Add to that travel for away games , overnights for a hotel booked weeks/months
in advance for 30 people + .
Coach travel , etc

Then you have pitch up keep & maintenance , stadium maintenance ( not the roof )
Cleaning the place up etc .


Then probably 1 of the biggest unseen spends in Football

Insurance against damage to your players .
To cover injury to them or neglience by a club etc.

Insurance on accidents caused to supporters in event of
accidents etc

Stewarding/policing

Then your basic admin

Ticketing etc .

All this stuff adds up .

Its not just a fee players .

Ask any buisness owner be it car repair or banking

You dont just pay for the staff, there are a huge amount of unrelated stuff to lay for.

Given this, I would humbly suggest they cut back on the custard creams.

Such extravagance should not be tolerated.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:31 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:45 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 am

What does the lose £400k bit mean?

I just can't get my head around these numbers. What have we got, 20 senior pros? Earning an average of say £75k, so that's £1.5m. Rent to Hearn is still £180k, isn't it?

What is the other £5.3m being spent on?

If you said 25 pkayers @ £1500 is 100k short of £2 million.
Say a 100k on Ross & Brill.

Then you have to feed all those players
You have training kit training facilities
Staff to do the food , staff to deal with laundry .
All the bits & bobs that go into training.

Then there is the youth set up so you are probably
Looking at £750k to £1 million to run with all the same things needed.

Then you have as said the support staff for the company.
So if you said 20 @ 25k .

Then you have to factor in physio staff , medical equipment
Computer support to deal with all those things .
Not just the Bandages sprays ointments etc , none of that stuff is cheap.

Then there is a gym that has to be paid for , all no doubt top spec & not your cheap option from
Argos .

Add to that travel for away games , overnights for a hotel booked weeks/months
in advance for 30 people + .
Coach travel , etc

Then you have pitch up keep & maintenance , stadium maintenance ( not the roof )
Cleaning the place up etc .


Then probably 1 of the biggest unseen spends in Football

Insurance against damage to your players .
To cover injury to them or neglience by a club etc.

Insurance on accidents caused to supporters in event of
accidents etc

Stewarding/policing

Then your basic admin

Ticketing etc .

All this stuff adds up .

Its not just a fee players .

Ask any buisness owner be it car repair or banking

You dont just pay for the staff, there are a huge amount of unrelated stuff to lay for.

Given this, I would humbly suggest they cut back on the custard creams.

Such extravagance should not be tolerated.

I doubt they would follow sugar rich diet.

Its a proffesional set up involving proffesional people

Not some rag tag O.A.P

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:10 pm We should move TO the M25 and operate like a service station.

Will ling be in charge of the petrol pumps?

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:07 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:31 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:45 pm

If you said 25 pkayers @ £1500 is 100k short of £2 million.
Say a 100k on Ross & Brill.

Then you have to feed all those players
You have training kit training facilities
Staff to do the food , staff to deal with laundry .
All the bits & bobs that go into training.

Then there is the youth set up so you are probably
Looking at £750k to £1 million to run with all the same things needed.

Then you have as said the support staff for the company.
So if you said 20 @ 25k .

Then you have to factor in physio staff , medical equipment
Computer support to deal with all those things .
Not just the Bandages sprays ointments etc , none of that stuff is cheap.

Then there is a gym that has to be paid for , all no doubt top spec & not your cheap option from
Argos .

Add to that travel for away games , overnights for a hotel booked weeks/months
in advance for 30 people + .
Coach travel , etc

Then you have pitch up keep & maintenance , stadium maintenance ( not the roof )
Cleaning the place up etc .


Then probably 1 of the biggest unseen spends in Football

Insurance against damage to your players .
To cover injury to them or neglience by a club etc.

Insurance on accidents caused to supporters in event of
accidents etc

Stewarding/policing

Then your basic admin

Ticketing etc .

All this stuff adds up .

Its not just a fee players .

Ask any buisness owner be it car repair or banking

You dont just pay for the staff, there are a huge amount of unrelated stuff to lay for.

Given this, I would humbly suggest they cut back on the custard creams.

Such extravagance should not be tolerated.

I doubt they would follow sugar rich diet.

Its a proffesional set up involving proffesional people

Not some rag tag O.A.P

These are the same ‘professional’ people who employed Carl Fletcher after an exhaustive process then sacked him three weeks later.

On second thoughts, custard creams are too exotic for this ‘pro set-up’ more like plain digestives then.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:00 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:07 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:31 pm

Given this, I would humbly suggest they cut back on the custard creams.

Such extravagance should not be tolerated.

I doubt they would follow sugar rich diet.

Its a proffesional set up involving proffesional people

Not some rag tag O.A.P

These are the same ‘professional’ people who employed Carl Fletcher after an exhaustive process then sacked him three weeks later.

On second thoughts, custard creams are too exotic for this ‘pro set-up’ more like plain digestives then.

Yupnthe same professional people who never hid from a mistake & rectified
it quickly & correctly

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:15 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:00 am

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:07 pm

I doubt they would follow sugar rich diet.

Its a proffesional set up involving proffesional people

Not some rag tag O.A.P

These are the same ‘professional’ people who employed Carl Fletcher after an exhaustive process then sacked him three weeks later.

On second thoughts, custard creams are too exotic for this ‘pro set-up’ more like plain digestives then.

Yupnthe same professional people who never hid from a mistake & rectified
it quickly & correctly

By appointing a rookie manager who didn't want the job. Stop defending the indefensible Tufty lad.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:15 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:00 am

By appointing a rookie manager who didn't want the job. Stop defending the indefensible Tufty lad.

Same people who employed Justin Edinburgh .
You know the bloke who didnt think our priority was a central Midfielder like you did .

Only indefensible action is your superior knowledge of Football over the Late Great JE .

What about those stell men eh .

Another pummeling .

One in four good appointments tuffers demonstrates poor decision making I’m afraid.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:17 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:15 pm

By appointing a rookie manager who didn't want the job. Stop defending the indefensible Tufty lad.

Same people who employed Justin Edinburgh .
You know the bloke who didnt think our priority was a central Midfielder like you did .

Only indefensible action is your superior knowledge of Football over the Late Great JE .

What about those stell men eh .

Another pummeling .

JE did exactly what I would have done given the short comings in midfield and the players available.

He knew what the big weakness was and took the necessary steps to mitigate it. So I'm not saying I have superior knowledge about football than JE. I'm saying on this one point we are equal.

So what Motherwell lose to a team with a CF worth 5 times our annual turnover. Quelle surprise.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:26 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:17 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 pm

By appointing a rookie manager who didn't want the job. Stop defending the indefensible Tufty lad.

Same people who employed Justin Edinburgh .
You know the bloke who didnt think our priority was a central Midfielder like you did .

Only indefensible action is your superior knowledge of Football over the Late Great JE .

What about those stell men eh .

Another pummeling .

JE did exactly what I would have done given the short comings in midfield and the players available.

He knew what the big weakness was and took the necessary steps to mitigate it. So I'm not saying I have superior knowledge about football than JE. I'm saying on this one point we are equal.

So what Motherwell lose to a team with a CF worth 5 times our annual turnover. Quelle surprise.

You dear boy like i shall NEVER be Equal to JE
In terms of Football

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:46 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:26 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:17 pm

Same people who employed Justin Edinburgh .
You know the bloke who didnt think our priority was a central Midfielder like you did .

Only indefensible action is your superior knowledge of Football over the Late Great JE .

What about those stell men eh .

Another pummeling .

JE did exactly what I would have done given the short comings in midfield and the players available.

He knew what the big weakness was and took the necessary steps to mitigate it. So I'm not saying I have superior knowledge about football than JE. I'm saying on this one point we are equal.

So what Motherwell lose to a team with a CF worth 5 times our annual turnover. Quelle surprise.

You dear boy like i shall NEVER be Equal to JE
In terms of Football

I didn't say I was. Read my post again.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:48 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:46 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:26 pm

JE did exactly what I would have done given the short comings in midfield and the players available.

He knew what the big weakness was and took the necessary steps to mitigate it. So I'm not saying I have superior knowledge about football than JE. I'm saying on this one point we are equal.

So what Motherwell lose to a team with a CF worth 5 times our annual turnover. Quelle surprise.

You dear boy like i shall NEVER be Equal to JE
In terms of Football

I didn't say I was. Read my post again.

Shame it took them 18 months to do something about the glaring weak spot. They can take some credit for getting Cisse in but why the delay?

Yup just did that & pasted your post above

"18 months " , "glaring weak spot ".

Yup you know better than JE did .
If he thought we needed to strengthen the midfield
He would have got someone in .

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:15 pm Yup just did that & pasted your post above

"18 months " , "glaring weak spot ".

Yup you know better than JE did .
If he thought we needed to strengthen the midfield
He would have got someone in .

I'm going to take a wild guess and state that I do not believe English comprehension was one of your best subjects at skool.

JE put a temporary fix on the glaring weakness by playing the three in the centre and two wing backs.

It couldn't be fixed properly during his time probably due to budgets and not being in a suitable transfer window.

Anyway. I'm finding this exchange very tiresome so please stop trying to put words in my mouth. This is my last reply.