Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:50 pm**

Engine Me wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:46 pm Back in my teens and early 20s I got involved in quite a bit (mainly travelling with Arsenal) but others too.
I'm not going to go into the stories as I really don't want to. However I am a completely different character now - quite the opposite actually and hate all the glorification of the subject.

The Herd?

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:17 pm**

There was trouble more often than not in the 70s and 80s.
At Orient I was there when we played Birmingham in May ‘72 and a ‘team’ from Millwall turned up as if Birmingham lost they would get promoted. I was also in the West Stand for the Chelsea cup tie and when Barrie Fairbrother scored out 3rd, all hell broke loose around me and my Dad, as Chelsea Hooligans tried to invade the pitch.
Apart from that it was all reasonably quiet, but then in those days I followed Arsenal mostly and stood on the famous North Bank.
If memory serves me trouble was confined to the Clock End as this is where the away fans were situated, although there was some form of segregation.
Trouble occurred on the North Bank if Chelsea, West Ham or Spurs were the opponent’s as their fans would infiltrate the North Bank, without any colours and then about 15-20 mins before kick off, it would all kick off as they would ‘steam in’ to try and take the Arsenal end.
The police often tried to form a line to separate the fans, but chaos ensued on what was usually a packed terrace.

Football Specials were the usual way of going to away games ‘up North’. British Rail, as it was back then, used the oldest rolling stock possible to transport fans across the country, and often windows, toilets, carriages got damaged.
One of the worst incidents was returning from Stoke when their fans threw bricks smashing the trains windows after the game.

In General the policing was amateurish with little intelligence and I think it was only after incidents like the Heysel stadium disaster did the authorities crackdown .

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:37 pm**

Cheshunto wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:17 pm There was trouble more often than not in the 70s and 80s.
At Orient I was there when we played Birmingham in May ‘72 and a ‘team’ from Millwall turned up as if Birmingham lost they would get promoted. I was also in the West Stand for the Chelsea cup tie and when Barrie Fairbrother scored out 3rd, all hell broke loose around me and my Dad, as Chelsea Hooligans tried to invade the pitch.
Apart from that it was all reasonably quiet, but then in those days I followed Arsenal mostly and stood on the famous North Bank.
If memory serves me trouble was confined to the Clock End as this is where the away fans were situated, although there was some form of segregation.
Trouble occurred on the North Bank if Chelsea, West Ham or Spurs were the opponent’s as their fans would infiltrate the North Bank, without any colours and then about 15-20 mins before kick off, it would all kick off as they would ‘steam in’ to try and take the Arsenal end.
The police often tried to form a line to separate the fans, but chaos ensued on what was usually a packed terrace.

Football Specials were the usual way of going to away games ‘up North’. British Rail, as it was back then, used the oldest rolling stock possible to transport fans across the country, and often windows, toilets, carriages got damaged.
One of the worst incidents was returning from Stoke when their fans threw bricks smashing the trains windows after the game.

In General the policing was amateurish with little intelligence and I think it was only after incidents like the Heysel stadium disaster did the authorities crackdown .

Yeah, I well remember the match against Birmingham City. When Brum scored at the north terrace end, where we were
standing, the placed exploded, you could hear the thuds going in and the wooden fencing behind the north end toilets being
broken up for weapons. There is a funny side to all this though, on my way to the ground a car pulled up along side us at
traffic lights. Bedecked in blue and white I asked the guys in the car, "Are you going to Orient's ground?" They said they were,
so I said "So am I, come in behind me and I'll show you the way". We got to the ground early and the gates were not open yet,
so we lined up along the Oliver Road wall. A couple of them looked very nervous, looking round all the time and generally
uneasy. I said to one them "What's wrong with you?" He replied "We've heard that all Londoners carry guns".
Gods honest truth.

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:39 pm**

One Saturday afternoon we were playing Watford and both sets of fans were in front of the tea stall in the West Side with a line of police in between them. The Watford fans started throwing pennies at the Orient fans and they simply could not miss a crowd as big as that. They were the old pre decimal pennies and Orient fan's faces and heads were cut to pieces, I was hit on the lip by a glancing penny but others came out much worse. Nasty or what?

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:07 pm**

Lovejoy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:39 pm One Saturday afternoon we were playing Watford and both sets of fans were in front of the tea stall in the West Side with a line of police in between them. The Watford fans started throwing pennies at the Orient fans and they simply could not miss a crowd as big as that. They were the old pre decimal pennies and Orient fan's faces and heads were cut to pieces, I was hit on the lip by a glancing penny but others came out much worse. Nasty or what?

Surprised really, Watford were never really known as rowdy fans and I certainly wouldn’t have put them down for something like this.
Back in the day though most teams had a ‘firm’ of some kind. I don’t remember Orient having much of one as far as I can remember. I think the worst were probably Millwall, Chelsea, Leeds, West Ham, Birmingham.........,Go on Utube and see Luton v Millwall 1985 League Cup tie, and in the same year Birmingham v Leeds, absolute carnage.

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:03 pm**

Middlesbrough away in the FA cup was the worst I remember. The train got bricked coming into Middlesbrough Station and after the game you had to fend for yourself to get back to the station. Boro fans were attacking whoever they could. They asked people the time and if answered in a cockney accent got a good kicking!
You'll never take the West Side was often heard, but plenty did!!

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 pm**

Lovejoy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:39 pm One Saturday afternoon we were playing Watford and both sets of fans were in front of the tea stall in the West Side with a line of police in between them. The Watford fans started throwing pennies at the Orient fans and they simply could not miss a crowd as big as that. They were the old pre decimal pennies and Orient fan's faces and heads were cut to pieces, I was hit on the lip by a glancing penny but others came out much worse. Nasty or what?

I had a similar experience at Maidstone last season.

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:46 pm**

Salford away this season was a laugh.bollard chucking and posturing .

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:08 pm**

Cheshunto wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:07 pm
Lovejoy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:39 pm One Saturday afternoon we were playing Watford and both sets of fans were in front of the tea stall in the West Side with a line of police in between them. The Watford fans started throwing pennies at the Orient fans and they simply could not miss a crowd as big as that. They were the old pre decimal pennies and Orient fan's faces and heads were cut to pieces, I was hit on the lip by a glancing penny but others came out much worse. Nasty or what?
Surprised really, Watford were never really known as rowdy fans and I certainly wouldn’t have put them down for something like this.
Back in the day though most teams had a ‘firm’ of some kind. I don’t remember Orient having much of one as far as I can remember. I think the worst were probably Millwall, Chelsea, Leeds, West Ham, Birmingham.........,Go on Utube and see Luton v Millwall 1985 League Cup tie, and in the same year Birmingham v Leeds, absolute carnage.

It was the start of football hooliganism and the police were pretty useless as they were not at all clued up as to what to do about it. The Watford fans were being taunted by the Orient fans who kept on singing their name in a high pitched accent. Take it from me, an old penny thrown through the air can do an awful lot of damage to a person.
The Orient firm was allegedly led by Charlie Hasler before he became the groundsman at Brisbane Road.

Posted: **Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:29 pm**

I can remember a bunch of morons charging down the North Terrace wearing hospital surgeons hoods, Millwall I think. I can also remember being pelted with railway ballast coming out of the Den after being herded into an alleyway by the police on the way back to the station.

Mikero

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:07 pm**

Walthamsto wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:14 pm The ones I remember from that era are Stockport away in the cup. We got up there a bit early, went to the ground to check it was still on as it was raining and were ambushed in the streets around the ground. Several young lads got a beating and a few of us ran into a pet shop to hide. Cardiff were very lively too. The match at Brisbane Rd was quite threatening. As always though, if you wanted to avoid it, you could. If you went looking for it, you could find it.

Remember this well (Stockport). Can also recall getting thumped at Peterboro, Huddersfield, Torquay, Carlise, Swansea, and Colchester in the late 80s
At Reading (in 1990 I think), I got 'picked off' on the way back to the station by 5 lads who filled me in. I have always detested Reading since this day for that reason. Swindon could also be quite intimidating.

Away crowds tended to be smaller in those days. If you travelled by train and were of a certain age, it was not uncommon for there to be a welcoming committee at the destination - particularly in the North. I lost count of the number of times I heard "come on Cockneys" from lads be-decked in casual clothes looking for a rumble.

Faced with this, it was usually a straight choice of fight, or flight. Usually the latter seemed the best option, and it was boarder Judge Dredd who so astutely stated the Donuts were, "less of a firm, more of a set of middle distance runners", so you learned to be quick on your feet, or risk a pasting.
I should add however, that I never encountered any real damage, it was usually just a few digs, and weapons or knives I never encountered at all, unlike today.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:18 pm**

Huxley wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:17 am
I suspect that one of the more accurate portrayals of hooliganism is a book called “away days” by Kevin Sampson (later made into a film) about a group of young Tranmere hooligans in the late seventies. Extremely nasty, violent and certainly not glamourous.

The film was about Everton fans, not Tranmere. It was very dark indeed, but was also clearly an attempt at making an 'art' film around hooliganism.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:32 pm**

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:18 pm
Huxley wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:17 am
I suspect that one of the more accurate portrayals of hooliganism is a book called “away days” by Kevin Sampson (later made into a film) about a group of young Tranmere hooligans in the late seventies. Extremely nasty, violent and certainly not glamourous.

The film was about Everton fans, not Tranmere. It was very dark indeed, but was also clearly an attempt at making an 'art' film around hooliganism.

I think they were Tranmere in the film too. The book is less “arty” than the film. I’d highly recommend it.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:43 pm**

I stand corrected if so. There was so little 'football' in the film, it was hard to tell iirc.
Will check out the book though, thanks

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:54 pm**

The West Side boys were noisy in the late 60's/70's and the general aggro was a bit of mass pushing and shoving. Charlton, Luton, Fulham and Doncaster at home come to mind. Each of said Clubs' "crew" entered (not in the biblical sense) the West Side - you could walk from one end of the ground to the other in those days. The banter was often playful but from there onwards things did worsen and the already mentioned Birmingham, Chelsea, Arsenal etc 70's matches were pwopa nauwty. A few of the West Siders were driven into the North Terrace by Chelsea on the 3-2 Cup day and subsequently found and pasted by the wall near the goal pre match.

Hooliganism was rife in many parts of the Country but police awareness as years went by meant that the "meetings" frequently took place outside of the grounds. Orient was never big in involvement either as perpetrators or victims but incidents have pretty much always happened on a relatively small scale. Mass rucks, not really - you couldn't get many into a Transit.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:13 pm**

Bring Out Your Riot Gear - Hearts are Here!: Gorgie Aggro, 1981-86 - a very honest account of football hooliganism in Scotland and life in general in the early 80s.
One of the few books that don't claim they were never beaten. It integrates the football action into everyday life.

NME From the Benders to the Gremlins - another honest book that is based on lots of contributors between the 1960 and 2000s. A book that like the Hearts one admits when they took a battering. I know a lot of the stuff in this book is true, because I saw it with my own eyes, or was involved in some of the resulting court cases

I have been trying to find my favorite book on the topic, which was published in the 1990s. It was an account of following Milwall home and away from someone who was not a hooligan, and told it as it was for a "normal" fan with all the violence in the 1980s. Unfortunately I can't find title of the book and gave my copy away 20+ years ago

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:15 pm**

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:13 pm Gorgie Aggro

'I Feel Love' is my favourite of his

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 pm**

Thankfully, when I started attending games as a kid in the late 90s, hooliganism had all but disappeared.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:47 pm**

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:13 pm Bring Out Your Riot Gear - Hearts are Here!: Gorgie Aggro, 1981-86 - a very honest account of football hooliganism in Scotland and life in general in the early 80s.
One of the few books that don't claim they were never beaten. It integrates the football action into everyday life.

NME From the Benders to the Gremlins - another honest book that is based on lots of contributors between the 1960 and 2000s. A book that like the Hearts one admits when they took a battering. I know a lot of the stuff in this book is true, because I saw it with my own eyes, or was involved in some of the resulting court cases

I have been trying to find my favorite book on the topic, which was published in the 1990s. It was an account of following Milwall home and away from someone who was not a hooligan, and told it as it was for a "normal" fan with all the violence in the 1980s. Unfortunately I can't find title of the book and gave my copy away 20+ years ago

You sure the Millwall one isn't Family by Michael Calvin. If it isn't, Family is a great book anyway. Just like all of Michael Calvin's.

The only other one I can think of that fits the timeframe is the book that they based the film ID on. Where the fella was a copper who just got a bit too involved.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:54 pm**

As a wee lad going to the O's with my Dad in the 80's I always remember when the Welsh were in town at Brisbane Road. The few occasions we played Millwall. Birmingham too.

Definitely can remember the fighting, more so lots of pushing and squaring up generally in the middle of the West up the back near the tea bar.

Reminiscing about how me and my old man used to go through the turnstiles at the North End of the West Stand, used to lift me over the barrier, give the fella a drink for his troubles. Then up that hill, little tea and burger bar on the left and into the low pitched (compared to now) West Side about half way through the stand. And then the smell of the muscle rub.

It was the best of times and probably the worst of times.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:58 pm**

Of more recent times, Rotherham away in their new stadium was unpleasant getting spat at, Southend has been edgy of late. Tranmere has always been fine for me but a couple of wrong turns and I can imagine you'd be in trouble. Chesterfield felt dicey, Hull's new stadium felt a bit odd having to walk through that long cage through a field was bizarre. Molineux was great fun around Xmas time a few years back when Baudry scores and we stayed top because we had a huge number with us.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:12 pm**

Never had any trouble at Millwall away. Neither when we won 0-1 with Wayne Gray or the 2-5 Ryan Jarvis hattrick game.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:13 pm**

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:47 pm
spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:13 pm Bring Out Your Riot Gear - Hearts are Here!: Gorgie Aggro, 1981-86 - a very honest account of football hooliganism in Scotland and life in general in the early 80s.
One of the few books that don't claim they were never beaten. It integrates the football action into everyday life.

NME From the Benders to the Gremlins - another honest book that is based on lots of contributors between the 1960 and 2000s. A book that like the Hearts one admits when they took a battering. I know a lot of the stuff in this book is true, because I saw it with my own eyes, or was involved in some of the resulting court cases

I have been trying to find my favorite book on the topic, which was published in the 1990s. It was an account of following Milwall home and away from someone who was not a hooligan, and told it as it was for a "normal" fan with all the violence in the 1980s. Unfortunately I can't find title of the book and gave my copy away 20+ years ago
You sure the Millwall one isn't Family by Michael Calvin. If it isn't, Family is a great book anyway. Just like all of Michael Calvin's.

The only other one I can think of that fits the timeframe is the book that they based the film ID on. Where the fella was a copper who just got a bit too involved.

Definitely not that book.

The one I am on about was a self published book by a Millwall fan ( not a hooligan) who travelled every game. A very honest book, warts and all.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:13 am**

Huxley wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:54 pm
EH16 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:24 pm
Huxley wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:13 pm

You touched on something I was trying to get at here.

If you were just a normal bloke who wanted to watch some football, how easier was it to avoid getting caught up in violence? Did it only occur if you went looking for it?
I can only speak from my own experience but as a regular football watcher in the 70s and 80s (though in Scotland, not England) I'd say you could nearly always avoid any trouble if you wanted to. There was always an element of 'wrong place, wrong time' but if you kept your wits about you it was OK. For me personally the introduction of segregation made things much safer and, though it pains me to praise anything the Thatcher government did, banning alcohol inside grounds was a massive improvement.
Was segregation not standard? I thought that has been in place since, well, forever.

No, when I first started going to football (late 60's) there was no formal segregation and you'll be able to clearly see this if you watch old footage from the 70's .

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:26 am**

Tent Keague wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:12 pm Never had any trouble at Millwall away. Neither when we won 0-1 with Wayne Gray or the 2-5 Ryan Jarvis hattrick game.

Not sure Millwall care about us. The hate west ham, obviously, the trainspotters, the Nigels and weeds.

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