Independent Leyton Orient Forum

I would not be surprised if no majority for any party in the forthcoming election. Labour has come out with a massive vote winner after they announced a policy to compensate some of the women who lost out as a result of changes to the pension age. The campaign for compensation has been led by the group Women Against State Pension Inequality (Waspi). Under a Labour government, women born between 6 April 1950 and 5 April 1955 would be paid £100 for each week of entitlement lost. Those born between 6 April 1955 and 6 April 1960 would receive smaller amounts. Labour's Angela Rayner told BBC News: "The government failed the women who were born in the 1950s. They stole their pension." The maximum compensation would be £31,300, with an average payment of £15,380. Labour says the policy would cost about £58bn, paid in instalments over five years.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:58 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:41 am

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:35 am

You'll get no argument from me about New Labour. That was a miserable time for anyone on the Left. We had a Neoconservative party and a mothballed conservative party. I'm not especially fond of the Labour party, I don't share their beliefs about many things but at least they're trying. The Tories are so dug in to their little niche as managers of the arse print left behind by the British Empire that they are incapable of doing anything but extracting what little nourishment there is left down the back of the sofa and feeding it to the already bloated bourgeoisie.

Sorry Eat, but I’m happy to discuss my opinions of the merits or otherwise of recent Governments performance but I draw the line with extremist, and what in my opinion are irrational, views which have little to do with balance. Time for me to retire from this one.

But, but if you moderate centerists shiteout of the debate us extremists win. I didn't have you down as a spineless Yella bellied loser.

Rarely have I ever been one to dip out of a debate, far from it. But I’m intelligent enough to realise when a debate will lead nowhere sensible. Better things to do. As for extremists winning. Don’t think so, I have more faith in human nature.

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:15 pm I would not be surprised if no majority for any party in the forthcoming election. Labour has come out with a massive vote winner after they announced a policy to compensate some of the women who lost out as a result of changes to the pension age. The campaign for compensation has been led by the group Women Against State Pension Inequality (Waspi). Under a Labour government, women born between 6 April 1950 and 5 April 1955 would be paid £100 for each week of entitlement lost. Those born between 6 April 1955 and 6 April 1960 would receive smaller amounts. Labour's Angela Rayner told BBC News: "The government failed the women who were born in the 1950s. They stole their pension." The maximum compensation would be £31,300, with an average payment of £15,380. Labour says the policy would cost about £58bn, paid in instalments over five years.

Got to say Sid, Labour are good at this sort of thing.

Of course corbyn is an anti Semite, were he no he would sue his accusers for millions.
Much of his anti semitism is disguised by his obsessive attacks on Israel the only Jewish state the size of wales.
He regularly attends anti Israel events and shares platforms with terrorists calling for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews. He is at the forefront of rallies against Israel when they retaliate against the thousands of rockets fired for Gaza , and calls the resulting death of Approx 3500 Palestinians war crimes. One must ask why he doesn’t show the same enthusiasm and activism against the Syrians and their Russian allies who have been responsible for over 700,000 dead and 12 million displaced.
Laying a wreath at the grave of the mastermind of the Munich olympics massacre says everything you need to know about corbyn, as does his campaigning against the removal of a blatantly anti Semitic
He has opposed the removal of other labour anti semites, and has stood by at a meeting where a member was shouting anti Semitic obscenities at a Jewish MP, enjoying a cost chat with him after.
He is not only an anti Semite , but he is a lying snake .

slacker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:15 pm

I have serious concerns about how a significant minority of members view Jewish people and their persecution

Eh? Do you actually think there’s “a significant minority” of current Labour members who just really hate Jews (either in the UK or elsewhere) and wish them harm individually or as a group, or are you talking about defence & criticism of Israel and the current Israeli Govt strategy in relation to the Palestinians here?

I’m not a Labour member, and although I’ve had a few heated debates about Israel/Palestine/Middle East with some over the years, I can honestly say I’ve never once felt threatened, unwelcome, or experienced any persecution from any of them at any time, unlike the - thankfully few in number - rabid far-right and jihadi nut-jobs who have targeted synagogues, Jewish graves, shops and even individuals who “look like” Jews.

That known-conservative orthodox Chief Rabbi doesn’t speak for me, that’s for sure. I’ll be voting Labour (not tactically Liberal even if they look like they’ve got a sniff of unseating the local Tory fixture, because he’s one of the less-obnoxious one-nation types who lost the whip recently, and probably less right-wing than Swinson’s orange book loons).

No I didn't. I worded it carefully as to not say that. What I am suggesting, though, is that there is a significant minority of members who fail or choose not to understand the sensitivities around Jewish people, and yes, in relation to Israel.

This includes things that are not obviously hateful. Examples include comparing Israel to the Nazi's, inferring that Jewish people should know better because of their experience, or just the simple fact that they seem to spend all their time focusing on Israel, and not mentioning other governments and regimes around the world guilty of similar actions.

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:16 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:58 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:41 am

Sorry Eat, but I’m happy to discuss my opinions of the merits or otherwise of recent Governments performance but I draw the line with extremist, and what in my opinion are irrational, views which have little to do with balance. Time for me to retire from this one.

But, but if you moderate centerists shiteout of the debate us extremists win. I didn't have you down as a spineless Yella bellied loser.

Rarely have I ever been one to dip out of a debate, far from it. But I’m intelligent enough to realise when a debate will lead nowhere sensible. Better things to do. As for extremists winning. Don’t think so, I have more faith in human nature.

As usual, once cornered and beaten you exit the debate. No doubt you'll be back in a minute to call me a child.

Sid bishop, anyone who believes that labour could seriously implement all these bribes to all and sundry must be stupid beyond belief. On that subject it’s apparent that labour have hidden the village idiot Dianne abbot from public scrutiny. No doubt she will suffer a migraine until the election is over.
What a prospect, a leadership trio comprised of an anti Semite , a village idiot racist shadow Home Secretary, and a Marxist shadow chancellor who has stated in the past he wants to bring down capitalism.

Worst case of the havers I've ever come across.

Corbyn is not an anti- semite even the Chief Rabbi doesn't say that.

Redcard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:47 pm Sid bishop, anyone who believes that labour could seriously implement all these bribes to all and sundry must be stupid beyond belief. On that subject it’s apparent that labour have hidden the village idiot Dianne abbot from public scrutiny. No doubt she will suffer a migraine until the election is over.
What a prospect, a leadership trio comprised of an anti Semite , a village idiot racist shadow Home Secretary, and a Marxist shadow chancellor who has stated in the past he wants to bring down capitalism.

Many will swallow these money tree bribes to vote for labour.

Well max the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise l

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:54 pm

Redcard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:47 pm Sid bishop, anyone who believes that labour could seriously implement all these bribes to all and sundry must be stupid beyond belief. On that subject it’s apparent that labour have hidden the village idiot Dianne abbot from public scrutiny. No doubt she will suffer a migraine until the election is over.
What a prospect, a leadership trio comprised of an anti Semite , a village idiot racist shadow Home Secretary, and a Marxist shadow chancellor who has stated in the past he wants to bring down capitalism.

Many will swallow these money tree bribes to vote for labour.

If you see a set of transformatory policies designed to get our economy working for ordinary people as bribes, then the problem is yours.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:50 pm Worst case of the havers I've ever come across.

Corbyn is not an anti- semite even the Chief Rabbi doesn't say that.

No he doesn't, but he does say that the leadership have failed to tackle the problem in the party adequately hence his intervention. That's undisputed cos what ever way you want to defend it only two parties have been referred to the equality and human rights commission, Labour and the BNP.

According to recent poll 87% of Kews believe Corbyn to be an anti semite and 46% of those polled said they would consider emigration should he win power.

Pretty damming stuff.

Max, you are correct in as much that the current chief rabbi stopped short of directly calling corbyn an anti Semite , but the previous chief rabbi Jonathan Sachs did just that. He publicly called corbyn n an anti Semite. If the evidence wasn’t overwhelming corbyn would have sued for literally millions.

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:50 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:41 am

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:35 am

You'll get no argument from me about New Labour. That was a miserable time for anyone on the Left. We had a Neoconservative party and a mothballed conservative party. I'm not especially fond of the Labour party, I don't share their beliefs about many things but at least they're trying. The Tories are so dug in to their little niche as managers of the arse print left behind by the British Empire that they are incapable of doing anything but extracting what little nourishment there is left down the back of the sofa and feeding it to the already bloated bourgeoisie.

Sorry Eat, but I’m happy to discuss my opinions of the merits or otherwise of recent Governments performance but I draw the line with extremist, and what in my opinion are irrational, views which have little to do with balance. Time for me to retire from this one.

I'm an extremist. You're an extremist. We're all extremist to someone. That's the nature of a hierarchical society. Middle ground, centrism, moderation... they don't make sense in this world. You're either for hierarchy in general (in which case you probably benefit from it or think that with a new man in charge you would benefit from it) or you're against hierarchy (in which case you're duty bound to oppose the system root and branch). Call it extremism if you like but i'm pointing right back at you. For it, against it, its all extremism. That's all there is.

What are those on the left so against hierarchy, monarchy, wealth, etc but so for the big state and it’s rules and regulations.It makes no sense. I am against hierarchy and the monarchy etc but also want the state to disappear. It’s also hierarchical.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:30 pm

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:50 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:41 am

Sorry Eat, but I’m happy to discuss my opinions of the merits or otherwise of recent Governments performance but I draw the line with extremist, and what in my opinion are irrational, views which have little to do with balance. Time for me to retire from this one.

I'm an extremist. You're an extremist. We're all extremist to someone. That's the nature of a hierarchical society. Middle ground, centrism, moderation... they don't make sense in this world. You're either for hierarchy in general (in which case you probably benefit from it or think that with a new man in charge you would benefit from it) or you're against hierarchy (in which case you're duty bound to oppose the system root and branch). Call it extremism if you like but i'm pointing right back at you. For it, against it, its all extremism. That's all there is.

What are those on the left so against hierarchy, monarchy, wealth, etc but so for the big state and it’s rules and regulations.It makes no sense. I am against hierarchy and the monarchy etc but also want the state to disappear. It’s also hierarchical.

Monarchy and wealth entrench privilege. What we on the left seek to entrench is equality and fairness.

Red army, of course they are bribes, but more than that, corbyn knows that they are economically unattainable.

Redcard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:59 pm Well max the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise l

There is no evidence. You're havering.

Who said this:



"Antisemitism in any form is vile and wrong. It is an evil in our society … It grew in Europe … and ultimately led to the Holocaust … Under a Labour government it will not be tolerated in any form whatsoever."

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:30 pm

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:50 am

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:41 am

Sorry Eat, but I’m happy to discuss my opinions of the merits or otherwise of recent Governments performance but I draw the line with extremist, and what in my opinion are irrational, views which have little to do with balance. Time for me to retire from this one.

I'm an extremist. You're an extremist. We're all extremist to someone. That's the nature of a hierarchical society. Middle ground, centrism, moderation... they don't make sense in this world. You're either for hierarchy in general (in which case you probably benefit from it or think that with a new man in charge you would benefit from it) or you're against hierarchy (in which case you're duty bound to oppose the system root and branch). Call it extremism if you like but i'm pointing right back at you. For it, against it, its all extremism. That's all there is.

What are those on the left so against hierarchy, monarchy, wealth, etc but so for the big state and it’s rules and regulations.It makes no sense. I am against hierarchy and the monarchy etc but also want the state to disappear. It’s also hierarchical.

Political views are complex things and it would take ages to fully explain the broad range of attitudes that people have and how they combine into recognisable ideologies and worldviews.

A simple answer is that not all leftists do promote the state. Anarchists, for example, are for the abolition of the state in all its forms.

The pro-state Left (Social Democrats) are the same as the pro-state Right (Conservatives/Liberals) in that they think that society and Capitalism need to be helped along and that the state is the best way to do that. So, when you say the Left, what you mean is the moderate left.

Redcard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:46 pm Red army, of course they are bribes, but more than that, corbyn knows that they are economically unattainable.

What makes you think they are bribes? Do you think that Corbyn doesn't believe in them?

Why are they economically unattainable?

After Labour gets stuffed in this election Corbyn will be swiftly removed as the leader of the Labour Party

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:20 pm After Labour gets stuffed in this election Corbyn will be swiftly removed as the leader of the Labour Party

If he doesn't become PM and if it looks like the Tories are going to be a relatively stable government then yes, he will step down. The next leader will almost certainly be Angela Rayner imho just because the membership is not going to vote for a Right-Winger like Jess Phillips and the rest of the field doesn't look ready or willing. Then we'll see that the problem wasn't Corbyn because the hatchets will be out for Rayner just as much as they were for Corbyn. She'll be called a red under the bed, a terrorist loving, Britain hating, economically illiterate menace to public safety... and that'll be just Laura Kunsberg's article Hopefully the penny will eventually drop with people that the problem isn't Corbyn, or Ed Miliband or Angela Rayner or the Labour Party. The problem is that the news is run by vastly wealthy Tory donors who have a vested interest in a Tory government.

Red army, corbyn knows full well that there is not a chance in hell of all his ridiculous bribes being implemented . It’s just not financially viable, unless of course he has arranged for the village idiot Abbott to cost them all.

Redcard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:44 pm Red army, corbyn knows full well that there is not a chance in hell of all his ridiculous bribes being implemented . It’s just not financially viable, unless of course he has arranged for the village idiot Abbott to cost them all.

One does have to wonder why, of all the utter incompetents and charlatans that sit in parliament, you choose to call Diane Abbott the village idiot. I think we can have a pretty good guess.

Redcard wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:44 pm Red army, corbyn knows full well that there is not a chance in hell of all his ridiculous bribes being implemented . It’s just not financially viable, unless of course he has arranged for the village idiot Abbott to cost them all.

But why is it not 'financially viable'? Please let me know.

Eat The Rich wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:26 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:20 pm After Labour gets stuffed in this election Corbyn will be swiftly removed as the leader of the Labour Party

If he doesn't become PM and if it looks like the Tories are going to be a relatively stable government then yes, he will step down. The next leader will almost certainly be Angela Rayner imho just because the membership is not going to vote for a Right-Winger like Jess Phillips and the rest of the field doesn't look ready or willing. Then we'll see that the problem wasn't Corbyn because the hatchets will be out for Rayner just as much as they were for Corbyn. She'll be called a red under the bed, a terrorist loving, Britain hating, economically illiterate menace to public safety... and that'll be just Laura Kunsberg's article Hopefully the penny will eventually drop with people that the problem isn't Corbyn, or Ed Miliband or Angela Rayner or the Labour Party. The problem is that the news is run by vastly wealthy Tory donors who have a vested interest in a Tory government.

Keir Starmer will most likely be the next leader.

You're right in saying that Labour leaders have had a tough time from the press, but we as a party have a habit of picking leaders ill suited to the rigours of the challenge. It is sometimes about horses for courses and we should select leaders knowing that they will be subject to a battering.