Independent Leyton Orient Forum

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:47 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:26 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:11 pm Why would anybody have Sympathy for a fella in a cushy job , who decides to throw his hat in tje ring for a High pressure roke as a League manager.

Cant stand the heat ,
Dont go into the kitchen
In the 1st place.
F*ck getting out of it.

You could argue he could stand the heat and wanted a few chefs given the boot instead given he didn't rate their cooking.

(how far can we take this analogy?)

4-0 plymouth 2-1 maldon & tiptree

Why do you think Carl ?

If we all knew that we'd be millionaires wouldnt we.

If ya wanna go in the kitchen, you got to at least know how to cook !

Well yeah you know bunging it in the microwave is... errr yeah cooking, so to speak. We'll go again and get better at it.

As for you, you and you (points at chefs and maitre d') you're all outta here for next serving.

Millionaires shortbread anyone?

North Stand Dave wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:35 pm Honest, Yes but no good if want to progress as a team & a club as they'll now just all stick together & do the same to the next bloke, that's if anyone will actually be interested if they know what went on this time around.
Bottom line some of our players are not good enough to get us out of this division, secondly as we see each week look unfit & thirdly some of the players get picked every game regardless of their form or lack of because Ross has his favourites.
That's certainly not ideal & reason for any optimism for the future.
Obviously I want Ross & the team to succed but if Ross just keeps picking his favourites some of the outsiders will end up leaving anyway.
Unfortunately it might take failure or lack of positive results before T & T realise having Ross & his gang at the club isn't working so they look for another Fletcher. But How long?

Agree that some players are not good enough. However some of them are contracted for next season. Sentiment has got to stop if we are to succeed

Fletcher was never given the chance to cook as Ross & his gang of mates wouldn't let him in the kitchen.
Don't keep going on about his interviews that has nothing to do with what he could offer the club.
Even Travis said he had good technical ability, he's not on the Piers Morgan show so what difference does it make?
What ever way you paint it, it's not good for the club how this has been dealt with & if Ross & his playground buddies have closed rank to get CF the boot they'd better kick their own arses & improve otherwise their lack of ability at managing & playing at a higher level will continue to show up especially if he keeps picking his chosen ones who are not up to it.
Ross has probably got until the end of the season & then he'll have to join another school & take some of his buddies with him.
He's just not strong enough to be a manager.
The whole thing sucks.

Fletcher was never given the chance to cook as Ross & his gang of mates wouldn't let him in the kitchen.
Don't keep going on about his interviews that has nothing to do with what he could offer the club.
Even Travis said he had good technical ability, he's not on the Piers Morgan show so what difference does it make?
What ever way you paint it, it's not good for the club how this has been dealt with & if Ross & his playground buddies have closed rank to get CF the boot they'd better kick their own arses & improve otherwise their lack of ability at managing & playing at a higher level will continue to show up especially if he keeps picking his chosen ones who are not up to it.
Ross has probably got until the end of the season & then he'll have to join another school & take some of his buddies with him.
He's just not strong enough to be a manager.
The whole thing sucks.

because the players aren't fit enough
===========================

I've seen references to this elsewhere but those with this view dont seem to realise that the Orient players may be super fit to their maximum but they still are not as fast or as strong as the competition. That doesnt make them unfit, its just that as you go up the leagues, players are by nature quicker, stronger and more mobile (and thats without considering skill levels).

If everyone could get 'fitter' then we would have more than one 100 metre champion sharing the accolade, more than one heavyweight boxing champion etc, etc. There's always someone fitter and better!

I have no sympathy for Fletcher. He patently was a loner and did not have the interpersonal skills to takeover or make and develop a team. If he had those skills, he wouldnt have fallen out with his staff and the squad. Did you notice that Ross was not wearing his Justin baseball cap v. Maldon but it was back v. Scunthorpe - rumour is he was told not to wear it by Fletcher - I can quite believe this given what we now know about him.

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:09 pm I have no sympathy for Fletcher. He patently was a loner and did not have the interpersonal skills to takeover or make and develop a team. If he had those skills, he wouldnt have fallen out with his staff and the squad. Did you notice that Ross was not wearing his Justin baseball cap v. Maldon but it was back v. Scunthorpe - rumour is he was told not to wear it by Fletcher - I can quite believe this given what we now know about him.

What baffles me is that how he managed to blag his way through the interview process.

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:09 pm I have no sympathy for Fletcher. He patently was a loner and did not have the interpersonal skills to takeover or make and develop a team. If he had those skills, he wouldnt have fallen out with his staff and the squad. Did you notice that Ross was not wearing his Justin baseball cap v. Maldon but it was back v. Scunthorpe - rumour is he was told not to wear it by Fletcher - I can quite believe this given what we now know about him.

That is pure speculation that you have no basis for.

Is it not possible that he was made to seem like a loner because the existing staff closed ranks?

Huxley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:15 pm

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:09 pm I have no sympathy for Fletcher. He patently was a loner and did not have the interpersonal skills to takeover or make and develop a team. If he had those skills, he wouldnt have fallen out with his staff and the squad. Did you notice that Ross was not wearing his Justin baseball cap v. Maldon but it was back v. Scunthorpe - rumour is he was told not to wear it by Fletcher - I can quite believe this given what we now know about him.

What baffles me is that how he managed to blag his way through the interview process.

Interesting point. Knowing what we do now about how he wanted to reorganize and reboot the team it's probably the case that the interviewers bought into this because they too saw the need for arses to be kicked.

Should be interesting when Kent arrives to conduct the Post Mortem.

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 pm because the players aren't fit enough
===========================

I've seen references to this elsewhere but those with this view dont seem to realise that the Orient players may be super fit to their maximum but they still are not as fast or as strong as the competition. That doesnt make them unfit, its just that as you go up the leagues, players are by nature quicker, stronger and more mobile (and thats without considering skill levels).

If everyone could get 'fitter' then we would have more than one 100 metre champion sharing the accolade, more than one heavyweight boxing champion etc, etc. There's always someone fitter and better!

Aaron Wilbraham

Played in all 4 leagues .

Not sure he would agree with that statement

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 pm because the players aren't fit enough
===========================

I've seen references to this elsewhere but those with this view dont seem to realise that the Orient players may be super fit to their maximum but they still are not as fast or as strong as the competition. That doesnt make them unfit, its just that as you go up the leagues, players are by nature quicker, stronger and more mobile (and thats without considering skill levels).

If everyone could get 'fitter' then we would have more than one 100 metre champion sharing the accolade, more than one heavyweight boxing champion etc, etc. There's always someone fitter and better!

Whilst you are quite correct in what you say, it is however, patently clear that we are not fit enough nor are we as fit as we were last year as a team. It is either Justin had a proper handle on the fitness levels he wanted or the current fitness guy has missed a beat or failing that the coaches have the players at the level they want?

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:56 pm

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 pm because the players aren't fit enough
===========================

I've seen references to this elsewhere but those with this view dont seem to realise that the Orient players may be super fit to their maximum but they still are not as fast or as strong as the competition. That doesnt make them unfit, its just that as you go up the leagues, players are by nature quicker, stronger and more mobile (and thats without considering skill levels).

If everyone could get 'fitter' then we would have more than one 100 metre champion sharing the accolade, more than one heavyweight boxing champion etc, etc. There's always someone fitter and better!

Aaron Wilbraham

Played in all 4 leagues .

Not sure he would agree with that statement

That we a cracking episode of UTC. Have to admit that I had no idea who the bloke was initially but he came across really well. That podcast in general is excellent.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:48 pm

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 pm because the players aren't fit enough
===========================

I've seen references to this elsewhere but those with this view dont seem to realise that the Orient players may be super fit to their maximum but they still are not as fast or as strong as the competition. That doesnt make them unfit, its just that as you go up the leagues, players are by nature quicker, stronger and more mobile (and thats without considering skill levels).

If everyone could get 'fitter' then we would have more than one 100 metre champion sharing the accolade, more than one heavyweight boxing champion etc, etc. There's always someone fitter and better!

Whilst you are quite correct in what you say, it is however, patently clear that we are not fit enough nor are we as fit as we were last year as a team. It is either Justin had a proper handle on the fitness levels he wanted or the current fitness guy has missed a beat or failing that the coaches have the players at the level they want?

From pre-season the intensity wasn't there. Who knows whether the fixtures we had were always planned or if club went easy after the loss of JE but we played some real tinpot sides where the players could stroll through and don't think they ever got up to speed for L2. That stems from the upper levels who have said on interview they didn't expect NL to L2 to be much different, which is unbelievably naive.

The change in fitness coach does make you wonder what effect has had there. Also suspect there may be an element of burnout from last season's efforts that have caught up into this one. Makes the lack of recruitment and squad strengthening over summer even more unfathomable.

The December fixture pile-up is going to be a real challenge for this squad to get though. I just hope we don't desperately need the points and the bottom sides stay there.

I think we can forgive the players for a lack of intensity in pre-season, a lot of the first games would have been weird.

We also were not complaining about fitness when the team were winning games. With the monitoring available nowadays it'd be plainly obvious to the staff if players condition was worse, and something could be done about it.

Just a case of players not being arsed IMO, some of it because they didn't buy into the manager, some of it because the manager was asking for things beyond their capabilities.

I was a little harsh on Fletcher, I still think most of it was his fault, but I can't accept that our lot were blameless and the structure of the club worked against him. I do think big changes are needed in regard to players and how the management is structured.

Would it not have been better to insist that the manager took the existing coaching staff, but on a 3 month probation period, after which he could choose to keep them or go for his choices? That way everyone would be incentivised to get along.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Just a case of players not being arsed IMO, some of it because they didn't buy into the manager, some of it because the manager was asking for things beyond their capabilities.

So what's the excuse for them being equally lazy and unfit under Embleton? Too pally with the players to give them the kick up the behind required?

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:28 pm
I just wish the club had explained to him that we as a club cannot follow his recommendations as we just do not transfer list people because he does not want them.

Ermmm apart from Boco, Mooney, Caprice, Elokobi you mean. In the past JE dropped the deadwood who didn't perform, however that seems to be unfashionable now.

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm

eagwgw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Just a case of players not being arsed IMO, some of it because they didn't buy into the manager, some of it because the manager was asking for things beyond their capabilities.

So what's the excuse for them being equally lazy and unfit under Embleton? Too pally with the players to give them the kick up the behind required?

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:28 pm
I just wish the club had explained to him that we as a club cannot follow his recommendations as we just do not transfer list people because he does not want them.

Ermmm apart from Boco, Mooney, Caprice, Elokobi you mean. In the past JE dropped the deadwood who didn't perform, however that seems to be unfashionable now.

It’s as if incompetence is encouraged.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:02 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm

eagwgw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Just a case of players not being arsed IMO, some of it because they didn't buy into the manager, some of it because the manager was asking for things beyond their capabilities.

So what's the excuse for them being equally lazy and unfit under Embleton? Too pally with the players to give them the kick up the behind required?

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:28 pm
I just wish the club had explained to him that we as a club cannot follow his recommendations as we just do not transfer list people because he does not want them.

Ermmm apart from Boco, Mooney, Caprice, Elokobi you mean. In the past JE dropped the deadwood who didn't perform, however that seems to be unfashionable now.

It’s as if incompetence is encouraged.

I think what we've got now is plenty of good cops but no bad cop to keep people in line and performing to the required levels. That's the side effect of the keeping it in-house model. In fact seems to be heading down the opposite route to Travis' "challenge culture"

Huxley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:44 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:56 pm

DuvB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 pm because the players aren't fit enough
===========================

I've seen references to this elsewhere but those with this view dont seem to realise that the Orient players may be super fit to their maximum but they still are not as fast or as strong as the competition. That doesnt make them unfit, its just that as you go up the leagues, players are by nature quicker, stronger and more mobile (and thats without considering skill levels).

If everyone could get 'fitter' then we would have more than one 100 metre champion sharing the accolade, more than one heavyweight boxing champion etc, etc. There's always someone fitter and better!

Aaron Wilbraham

Played in all 4 leagues .

Not sure he would agree with that statement

That we a cracking episode of UTC. Have to admit that I had no idea who the bloke was initially but he came across really well. That podcast in general is excellent.

They are getting better

The Martin Allen stories had me laughing .
Madman .

They do a patreon which gives different podcasts & i missed the Ian Holloway job.

Phil parkinson got well & truly slated by another
Interviewee .

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:14 pm

Huxley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:44 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:56 pm




Aaron Wilbraham

Played in all 4 leagues .

Not sure he would agree with that statement

That we a cracking episode of UTC. Have to admit that I had no idea who the bloke was initially but he came across really well. That podcast in general is excellent.

They are getting better

The Martin Allen stories had me laughing .
Madman .

They do a patreon which gives different podcasts & i missed the Ian Holloway job.

Phil parkinson got well & truly slated by another
Interviewee .

Parkinson got a bit slated in the one above.

Not sure about the move to patreon. I find it hard to believe that a couple of ex-pro footballers can’t afford to run a podcast where they sit telling tales and putting away pints.

Mark Crossley and Kevin Campbell have been my favourite so far. Grant Holt I enjoyed just because I remember him well as a player.

Huxley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:54 pm

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:14 pm

Huxley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:44 pm

That we a cracking episode of UTC. Have to admit that I had no idea who the bloke was initially but he came across really well. That podcast in general is excellent.

They are getting better

The Martin Allen stories had me laughing .
Madman .

They do a patreon which gives different podcasts & i missed the Ian Holloway job.

Phil parkinson got well & truly slated by another
Interviewee .

Parkinson got a bit slated in the one above.

Not sure about the move to patreon. I find it hard to believe that a couple of ex-pro footballers can’t afford to run a podcast where they sit telling tales and putting away pints.

Mark Crossley and Kevin Campbell have been my favourite so far. Grant Holt I enjoyed just because I remember him well as a player.

I think the patreon covers the Beer .

You tube payout covers the Football trips etc
The beer money patreon must be for Parki.
They went to Dublin for the Bohs v Rovers derby.
Laggin isnt a good enough.descr9ption

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm
So what's the excuse for them being equally lazy and unfit under Embleton? Too pally with the players to give them the kick up the behind required?

Are you sure you are not confusing bad fitness for bad defending?

We are 23rd in the League for 1st half results, but 4th for the second half results, if it was a fitness problem you'd expect it to be the other way around.

Here's the link: https://www.soccerstats.com/halftime.as ... e=england4

We'd actually be bottom of that in reality, Grimsby have three games in hand and one point less. Seems mad how we have conceded 20 goals in the first half, the worst by a long way, next worst is Carlisle on 16. But for the second half we are among the top half dozen.

Just think we have no coaches that are any good at organising a defence and we are leaking very cheap goals as a result. The same thing happened before Justin came in as well.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:02 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm

eagwgw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:20 pm
Just a case of players not being arsed IMO, some of it because they didn't buy into the manager, some of it because the manager was asking for things beyond their capabilities.

So what's the excuse for them being equally lazy and unfit under Embleton? Too pally with the players to give them the kick up the behind required?

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:28 pm
I just wish the club had explained to him that we as a club cannot follow his recommendations as we just do not transfer list people because he does not want them.

Ermmm apart from Boco, Mooney, Caprice, Elokobi you mean. In the past JE dropped the deadwood who didn't perform, however that seems to be unfashionable now.

It’s as if incompetence is encouraged.

To both points it’s more likely that Justin never pissed off everyone and spoke with an authority which carried weight. He spoke people listened. He earnt people’s respect. Fletch by the sound of it did nothing of the sort.

eagwgw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:04 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm
So what's the excuse for them being equally lazy and unfit under Embleton? Too pally with the players to give them the kick up the behind required?

Are you sure you are not confusing bad fitness for bad defending?

We are 23rd in the League for 1st half results, but 4th for the second half results, if it was a fitness problem you'd expect it to be the other way around.

Here's the link: https://www.soccerstats.com/halftime.as ... e=england4

We'd actually be bottom of that in reality, Grimsby have three games in hand and one point less. Seems mad how we have conceded 20 goals in the first half, the worst by a long way, next worst is Carlisle on 16. But for the second half we are among the top half dozen.

Just think we have no coaches that are any good at organising a defence and we are leaking very cheap goals as a result. The same thing happened before Justin came in as well.

They seem only capable of playing one half. Whether it's like Carlisle where first half was great, then succumbed second when the legs gave out or any number of Embleton performances where we're battered for 45 minutes then give it a go after HT (usually too late to change the end result).

We concede cheap goals because no-one is sprinting out pressing the loose ball. We concede cheap corners from losing the CM battle and allowing teams to dominate.

Scunthorpe were sprinting 20-30 yards to push us back all game last Saturday, right until the last minute. Compare to Clay half-heartedly ambling around as their midfield played ole football and you see the difference. Last season he was charging around the length of the pitch to get back.

Justin got that extra 10-20% out of players, they'd run through brick walls for him and any who didn't got the boot. Embleton hasn't got the strength of character to make those demands, Fletcher tried and we saw what happened to him.

I thought at the time while watching the Maldon game that the players just didn’t seem to want to play that day. It was kind of like they were striking against Fletcher, they certainly didn’t seem too bothered at the final whistle.
If that’s true then they really need a good bollocking.

However, that theory falls apart because we were just as poo poo against Scunthorpe with Embleton in charge again. So who knows?

Anyway, if this shambles carries on much longer then I can’t see myself going to many more games this season.

North Stand Dave wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:51 pm Totally agree Huxley & as for you tuffers DO ONE.

Redintheface what do you expect Ross & the players pull rank over Fletcher with their closed shop we don't want change attitude, just incase one of them got dropped or even moved on because their only National league standard. didums
It's about the club moving forward & us supporters wanting a successful team not just a team with just a make do attitude.
The first half against Carlisle was good to watch & the best half of football this season, just because the players aren't fit enough & didn't quite fancy that style because they would have to train harder they decided not to play for him.
Feel for the man.
Employ Piers Morgan next time then if you want someone to do good interviews.
How pathetic that realy is.
Poor sod.

Absolutely spot on!