Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Labour need to make sure students can vote and immigrants haven’t gone back home for a holiday. The working class don’t for them anymore.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:40 am Labour need to make sure students can vote and immigrants haven’t gone back home for a holiday. The working class don’t for them anymore.

You're right, it seems much more palatable to them to be shafted deliberately than by incompetence

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:40 am Labour need to make sure students can vote and immigrants haven’t gone back home for a holiday. The working class don’t for them anymore.

13 million is a lot of students and foreign.

In Mediaeval times the Lord of the manor stepped aside for a lord of Misrule to run things over the 12 days of Christmas. Take your pick as to who that is in Parliament today - my money's on the lot of them collectively.

Shadow Cabinet to back Dec 11 election.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:54 am Shadow Cabinet to back Dec 11 election.

Feck

What happens then if there's another hung parliament? That'll be fun.

Who-fecking-Ray. Have a GE to sort out Brexit then we can move on. It’s the only sensible solution to the current stalemate.

Bojo wins, we do the deal
JerCo wins and he renegotiate a deal and gets it done

Worst case, no overall majority then, the EU boot is out with no deal

But it will be over.

Beradogs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:40 am Labour need to make sure students can vote and immigrants haven’t gone back home for a holiday. The working class don’t for them anymore.

So you're suggesting only students and immigrants vote Labour? Can you break down, for us, how you've arrived at, what seems to me, such an erroneous conclusion. Also, can you clarify how you're defining immigrants?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:47 am

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:54 am Shadow Cabinet to back Dec 11 election.

Feck

Labour has been backed into a corner on this somewhat. Lib/SNP support has made an election almost inevitable, and the opposition opposing an election is not a good look.

Lib/SNP are taking a huge gamble here. If it goes wrong for them, a big Tory majority will all but kill off their respective big issues, remaining in the EU and a second Scottish Independence referendum. They both are gambling on being able to form some sort of confidence arrangement with a minority Labour government to get a) remain on the ballot in a second referendum and b) a second Scottish Independence referendum.

It's not a gamble for the libs. They've got nothing to lose.

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 pm It's not a gamble for the libs. They've got nothing to lose.

They do. Their issue of remaining in the EU will be put back should the Tories get a big majority.

It's less of a gamble for the SNP, who will see a Tory majority as a way of increasing support for independence given that Scotland won't have voted Tory.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:58 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:47 am

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:54 am Shadow Cabinet to back Dec 11 election.

Feck

Labour has been backed into a corner on this somewhat. Lib/SNP support has made an election almost inevitable, and the opposition opposing an election is not a good look.

Lib/SNP are taking a huge gamble here. If it goes wrong for them, a big Tory majority will all but kill off their respective big issues, remaining in the EU and a second Scottish Independence referendum. They both are gambling on being able to form some sort of confidence arrangement with a minority Labour government to get a) remain on the ballot in a second referendum and b) a second Scottish Independence referendum.

Same old SNP and Liebrals. Always helping the Tories.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:23 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 pm It's not a gamble for the libs. They've got nothing to lose.

They do. Their issue of remaining in the EU will be put back should the Tories get a big majority.

It's less of a gamble for the SNP, who will see a Tory majority as a way of increasing support for independence given that Scotland won't have voted Tory.

Don't understimate the strength of the Tory vote in Scotland. There are many who cling to them because of fear of Independence and support for Brexit.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:33 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:23 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 pm It's not a gamble for the libs. They've got nothing to lose.

They do. Their issue of remaining in the EU will be put back should the Tories get a big majority.

It's less of a gamble for the SNP, who will see a Tory majority as a way of increasing support for independence given that Scotland won't have voted Tory.

Don't understimate the strength of the Tory vote in Scotland. There are many who cling to them because of fear of Independence and support for Brexit.

Don't get me wrong they will pick up seats, but my point was that a big Tory majority will play in to the SNP's hands given that the SNP will win a majority of seats in Scotland. It allows them to say 'Scotland didn't vote for this, we want a 2nd ref'.

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:35 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:33 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:23 pm

They do. Their issue of remaining in the EU will be put back should the Tories get a big majority.

It's less of a gamble for the SNP, who will see a Tory majority as a way of increasing support for independence given that Scotland won't have voted Tory.

Don't understimate the strength of the Tory vote in Scotland. There are many who cling to them because of fear of Independence and support for Brexit.

Don't get me wrong they will pick up seats, but my point was that a big Tory majority will play in to the SNP's hands given that the SNP will win a majority of seats in Scotland. It allows them to say 'Scotland didn't vote for this, we want a 2nd ref'.

Ok, so long as you know. Carry on.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:38 pm

Red_Army wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:35 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:33 pm

Don't understimate the strength of the Tory vote in Scotland. There are many who cling to them because of fear of Independence and support for Brexit.

Don't get me wrong they will pick up seats, but my point was that a big Tory majority will play in to the SNP's hands given that the SNP will win a majority of seats in Scotland. It allows them to say 'Scotland didn't vote for this, we want a 2nd ref'.

Ok, so long as you know. Carry on.

Where does the SSP stand on this Max - is it nihilism again, or something more apocalyptic?

The Scottish Socialist Party stands for Socialism

Our ambition is to replace capitalist exploitation with a system that empowers workers; closes a widening wealth gap; lifts us out of low-wage, precarious jobs; prioritises people and planet; and promotes solidarity over imperialism and war.

Our socialist project is to change society from root to tip - not merely seeking to taper inequality at the fringes.

Independence

The SSP is striving to create an independent, nuclear-free, multi-cultural, Scottish republic.

We believe that breaking free of the suffocating stranglehold of the British state will benefit working class people across these islands.

Working for a common goal during the 2014 campaign, in Yes Scotland, we helped raise the demand to where it is in modern Scottish politics.

Internationalism

We build solidarity with workers in struggle throughout the world, forge links with fellow global anti-capitalists, to fight against capitalist globalisation.

In doing so, we reject all attempts to blame migrant workers, refugees or asylum seekers for Britain’s economic, social and cultural problems.

Class Struggle

If you seek a way out from an emboldened Tory regime - then organise.

Resist austerity, imposed by Westminster or by Holyrood — and strive to put working class people at the steering wheel of a new independent Scotland.

See you on the streets!

Promotes solidarity. Wants independence. Weird.

The perception, the polls and the actions to date suggest that Labour do not want this election. Its probably because before now they can't agree on a Brexit position. I'm concerned that they are caught between the conservative brexiteers and the liberal remoaners. The result of this election could see even more polarisation in politics; opinions dividing a country and perhaps even a new mainstream political party.

It will be an interesting election, for sure.

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:37 pm Promotes solidarity. Wants independence. Weird.

Yes there is a bit of a contradiction there between nationalism and internationalism. Good spot.

Personally I have been arguing for a long time that too much time and effort has been placed on independence and not enough on austerity and workers interests.

Others think that too and hence there has been more work on campaigns like the £10ph minimum wage regardless of age.

Won't the brexit party split the vote?

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm Won't the brexit party split the vote?

This is the most important variable in this election.

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm Won't the brexit party split the vote?

Lets hope so.

After all Boris can't be trusted as he failed to Brexit us by 31 Oct. The man's a born liar not like Adolf Farage.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:48 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:23 pm Won't the brexit party split the vote?

Lets hope so.

After all Boris can't be trusted as he failed to Brexit us by 31 Oct. The man's a born liar not like Adolf Farage.

Yes, we know that. But do the thicko remainers understand or recognise that?