Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:18 pm**

Nonsense, the club is in my opinion safes under it's current guardianship. Who owns the ground is irrelevant cos that bit of land don't pay the Bill's!!

As far as we've never owned a ground again that's irrelevant cos if that had been the case who knows what any of the previous owners would have done with that asset.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:25 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:18 pm Nonsense, the club is in my opinion safes under it's current guardianship. Who owns the ground is irrelevant cos that bit of land don't pay the Bill's!!

As far as we've never owned a ground again that's irrelevant cos if that had been the case who knows what any of the previous owners would have done with that asset.

What happens if the pension fund decide to up the rent to £1m+ a year, or to evict us and develop the land for housing?

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:51 pm**

LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:45 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:38 pm
West Side Story wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:47 pm This is a team we should be on a par with. We have had a similar sort of League history, sharing their up's and downs. But i thought that they looked pretty nifty after watching them on TV last night. I concede that their ridiculous first goal knocked the stuffing out of our boys, but still. Their ground looks solid ( from what I could see ) and is being improved. Dulcet Dave said there were 9000+ fans there and we were hardly boosting the crowd. That is very good for a mid October Wednesday night.
9000+ is a full house at Brisbane Rd. The ground looks terrible in comparison ( 4 housing estates, how did that ever happen without a huge fight?). Now is the time to get some pride in the club. Get us up a few divisions. It can't happen overnight. But there needs to be some serious plans to boost the fan base. A show of intent by the owners that we too can be a club of note and not just another Dagenham and Redbridge eking an existence.
I think having 4 housing estates puts us at the heart of the people and makes us the Community Club that we are. Fan ownership would be good too because I'm not too impressed with some of the decisions made recently by the junta in charge.
So everytime you disagree with a couple of decisions you want a regime change? Be careful what (and who) you wish for. This mob care more than anyone has since we took blood money from Tony Wood in the 1980's.

As for fan ownership, that's been tried and does not work. In fact its a comment that is so impractical that its hardly worth further comment. The bottom line is that Orient will always need funding unless its reduced in size to a model that works (which almost certainly means a smaller ground).

You are confused. I've always wanted a regime change. I want the club to be fan owned. It's not because of recent blunders by the current owners. The recent blunders have been pretty big ones though.

Your comments about fan ownership and Orient always needing funding are just assertions and lack any insight into how things might be different. I blame Brexit and the blinkered atmosphere it has created for this kind of fatalist thinking. Either that or you have a vested interest in the status quo.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:59 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:18 pm Nonsense, the club is in my opinion safes under it's current guardianship. Who owns the ground is irrelevant cos that bit of land don't pay the Bill's!!

As far as we've never owned a ground again that's irrelevant cos if that had been the case who knows what any of the previous owners would have done with that asset.

Thor , I only brought the ground ownership into play
As the OP seemed to be suggesting that plymouth are a club bigger than us purely due to the size & state of our comparative grounds.

I agree in general it is irrelevant , as only 9000 attended
While our biggest att of the season is just under 8000.

Considering we are surrounded by EPL clubs & Plymouth are not , suggests Plymouth are way way below where they should be.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:10 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:42 am
LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:45 am
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:38 pm

I think having 4 housing estates puts us at the heart of the people and makes us the Community Club that we are. Fan ownership would be good too because I'm not too impressed with some of the decisions made recently by the junta in charge.
So everytime you disagree with a couple of decisions you want a regime change? Be careful what (and who) you wish for. This mob care more than anyone has since we took blood money from Tony Wood in the 1980's.

As for fan ownership, that's been tried and does not work. In fact its a comment that is so impractical that its hardly worth further comment. The bottom line is that Orient will always need funding unless its reduced in size to a model that works (which almost certainly means a smaller ground).
Fan ownership has worked and could work for sure. I would also ask you how private ownership has worked for us over the past 3 decades? We are lucky that the current owners seem to have our interests at heart.

Private ownership kept us alive. This club has not made a consistent profit in 50 years - even when Bazza was raping the club. Its generally accepted that we lose c.£500k in an average season. I also believe Kent & co paid c.£4m for the club. As fans, begging outside other clubs included, we raised c.£200,000 - 5% of the ask......

As for fan ownership, it works on an interim basis but not longer term. Portsmouth was the largest fan owned club - but it only stayed that way for 5 years. The only way it would ever happen here is if the club were a much smaller one than it is today.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:14 pm**

To be fair some of the biggest clubs in the world are fan owned.
Barcelona , Bundesliga clubs etc.

Works for them but i doubt it work for the O's .

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm**

LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:10 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:42 am
LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:45 am

So everytime you disagree with a couple of decisions you want a regime change? Be careful what (and who) you wish for. This mob care more than anyone has since we took blood money from Tony Wood in the 1980's.

As for fan ownership, that's been tried and does not work. In fact its a comment that is so impractical that its hardly worth further comment. The bottom line is that Orient will always need funding unless its reduced in size to a model that works (which almost certainly means a smaller ground).
Fan ownership has worked and could work for sure. I would also ask you how private ownership has worked for us over the past 3 decades? We are lucky that the current owners seem to have our interests at heart.
Private ownership kept us alive. This club has not made a consistent profit in 50 years - even when Bazza was raping the club. Its generally accepted that we lose c.£500k in an average season. I also believe Kent & co paid c.£4m for the club. As fans, begging outside other clubs included, we raised c.£200,000 - 5% of the ask......

As for fan ownership, it works on an interim basis but not longer term. Portsmouth was the largest fan owned club - but it only stayed that way for 5 years. The only way it would ever happen here is if the club were a much smaller one than it is today.

Private ownership almost killed us on more than one occasion. We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

Fan ownership has usually come in due to a crisis so the clubs are likely to be in a bad way before the takeover. I'm not saying we should immediately change this now, but we should not rule it out forever.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:30 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:10 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:42 am

Fan ownership has worked and could work for sure. I would also ask you how private ownership has worked for us over the past 3 decades? We are lucky that the current owners seem to have our interests at heart.

We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

I was kind of responding to this statement about benevolent owners being rare.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:32 pm**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:30 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:10 pm

Private ownership kept us alive. This club has not made a consistent profit in 50 years - even when Bazza was raping the club. Its generally accepted that we lose c.£500k in an average season. I also believe Kent & co paid c.£4m for the club. As fans, begging outside other clubs included, we raised c.£200,000 - 5% of the ask......

As for fan ownership, it works on an interim basis but not longer term. Portsmouth was the largest fan owned club - but it only stayed that way for 5 years. The only way it would ever happen here is if the club were a much smaller one than it is today.
Private ownership almost killed us on more than one occasion. We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

Fan ownership has usually come in due to a crisis so the clubs are likely to be in a bad way before the takeover. I'm not saying we should immediately change this now, but we should not rule it out forever.
Rare ?

Are all clubs in the uk not owned by benevolent owners
With the exception of Wycombe & possibly
2 or 3 others ?

Yes it is rare. Lower league football is also undergoing an existential crisis at the moment.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:43 pm**

Accounts for last season reveal a gulf in wealth in the English game, with 52 of the 72 EFL clubs losing money.

Taking into account all profits and losses, the 20 Premier League clubs made a surplus of £304 million while the 72 EFL teams had a collective net deficit of £388 million. Here's the list

2017-18 Net profit and loss
1 Tottenham £113m 47 Chesterfield -£1.1m
2 Liverpool £106m 48 Lincoln -£1.1m
3 Chelsea £62m 49 Derby -£1.1m
4 Arsenal £57m 50 Portsmouth -£1.4m
5 Burnley £37m 51 Notts County -£1.5m
6 Southampton £29m 52 Swindon -£1.8m
7 Newcastle £19m 53 Sheffield Utd -£1.9m
8 Hull £19m 54 Northampton -£2m
9 West Ham £17m 55 Oxford -£2m
10 Norwich £15m 56 Blackpool -£2.1m
11 Barnsley £13m 57 Coventry -£2.5m
12 Huddersfield £11m 58 Doncaster -£2.8m
13 Brighton £11m 59 Bury -£2.8m
14 Manchester City £10m 60 Swansea -£3m
15 Exeter £2.4m 61 Southend -£3.1m
16 Leicester £1m 62 Colchester -£3m
17 Preston £1m 63 Bristol Rovers -£3m
18 Port Vale £1m 64 Scunthorpe -£3.6m
19 Stevenage £0.8m 65 Brentford -£3.9m
20 Luton £0.6m 66 Leeds -£4.3m
21 Peterborough £0.5m 67 MK Dons -£4.6m
22 Forest Green £0.4 68 Millwall -£4.6m
23 Accrington £0.4m 69 Ipswich -£5.2m
24 Fleetwood £0.4m 70 Bolton -£5.4m
25 Burton £0.3m 71 Nottingham Forest -£5.6m
26 Shrewsbury £0.3m 72 West Brom -£6m
27 Gillingham £0.1m 73 Middlesbrough -£6.6m
28 Plymouth £0.1m 74 Wigan -£7.7m
29 Newport £0.1m 75 Sunderland -£10.2m
30 Yeovil £0.1m 76 Charlton -£10.4m
31 Walsall no profit/loss 77 Bournemouth -£11m
32 Barnet no profit/loss 78 Everton -£13m
33 Grimsby -£0.04m 79 Blackburn -£16.8m
34 Cheltenham -£0.1m 80 Reading -£21m
35 Carlisle -£0.1m 81 Sheffield Wed -£21m
36 Mansfield -£0.1m 82 Bristol City -£25m
37 Bradford -£0.3m 83 Watford -£31m
38 Rochdale -£0.3m 84 Stoke -£32m
39 Crawley -£0.3m 85 Aston Villa -£35m
40 Morecambe -£0.4m 86 Cardiff -£36m
41 Oldham -£0.5m 87 Crystal Palace -£36m
42 Rotherham -£0.5m 88 Manchester Utd -£37m
43 Wimbledon -£0.5m 89 Birmingham -£37m
44 Wycombe -£0.7m 90 QPR -£38m
45 Crewe -£0.8m 91 Fulham -£45m
46 Cambridge -£0.8m 92 Wolves -£57m

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:23 pm**

I threw the ball to the fans in the original post for you to have a kick around. Some just don't get the point. There were around 9000 at the Plymouth ground and one of the bigger stands was empty because of improvements ( sign of ambition ). Now we have had a dodgy spell controlled by a mad man. Seems like we have decent chappies at the helm now ( as far as one can tell- all business men can be ruthless- that's how you get on ). But this is where I brought in the comparison. Brisbane Rd only holds 9000+. Last season when we were winning games and got promotion, the ground looked quite full. But this is where, people are misled. I am old and a bit frail. I can't go to the matches if it is too cool. So if a match looks good, I have to leave it quite late before getting a ticket, hoping the weather will be mild. When you go on the website, there are very few seats available. Because a lot are pre-sold to Season Ticket holders. So I don't bother. There are plenty of other people who are like me, for various reasons leave it until quite late to get their ticket. Imagine if we get a good run in at the end of the Season ( even more disappointed late ticket buyers ). People just don't see, that if we had ambitions beyond being a poor side in Division One, Brisbane Rd just ain't big enough.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:26 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:32 pm
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:30 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm

Private ownership almost killed us on more than one occasion. We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

Fan ownership has usually come in due to a crisis so the clubs are likely to be in a bad way before the takeover. I'm not saying we should immediately change this now, but we should not rule it out forever.
Rare ?

Are all clubs in the uk not owned by benevolent owners
With the exception of Wycombe & possibly
2 or 3 others ?
Yes it is rare. Lower league football is also undergoing an existential crisis at the moment.

Please list all clubs who are fan owned as i think it is not Rare .
Many thanks

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:29 pm**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:26 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:32 pm
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:30 pm

Rare ?

Are all clubs in the uk not owned by benevolent owners
With the exception of Wycombe & possibly
2 or 3 others ?
Yes it is rare. Lower league football is also undergoing an existential crisis at the moment.
Please list all clubs who are fan owned as i think it is not Rare .
Many thanks

I've got better things to do with my time thanks. I'll give you Exeter as one example but I can tell you it is rare.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:31 pm**

LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:43 pm Accounts for last season reveal a gulf in wealth in the English game, with 52 of the 72 EFL clubs losing money.

Taking into account all profits and losses, the 20 Premier League clubs made a surplus of £304 million while the 72 EFL teams had a collective net deficit of £388 million. Here's the list

2017-18 Net profit and loss
1 Tottenham £113m 47 Chesterfield -£1.1m
2 Liverpool £106m 48 Lincoln -£1.1m
3 Chelsea £62m 49 Derby -£1.1m
4 Arsenal £57m 50 Portsmouth -£1.4m
5 Burnley £37m 51 Notts County -£1.5m
6 Southampton £29m 52 Swindon -£1.8m
7 Newcastle £19m 53 Sheffield Utd -£1.9m
8 Hull £19m 54 Northampton -£2m
9 West Ham £17m 55 Oxford -£2m
10 Norwich £15m 56 Blackpool -£2.1m
11 Barnsley £13m 57 Coventry -£2.5m
12 Huddersfield £11m 58 Doncaster -£2.8m
13 Brighton £11m 59 Bury -£2.8m
14 Manchester City £10m 60 Swansea -£3m
15 Exeter £2.4m 61 Southend -£3.1m
16 Leicester £1m 62 Colchester -£3m
17 Preston £1m 63 Bristol Rovers -£3m
18 Port Vale £1m 64 Scunthorpe -£3.6m
19 Stevenage £0.8m 65 Brentford -£3.9m
20 Luton £0.6m 66 Leeds -£4.3m
21 Peterborough £0.5m 67 MK Dons -£4.6m
22 Forest Green £0.4 68 Millwall -£4.6m
23 Accrington £0.4m 69 Ipswich -£5.2m
24 Fleetwood £0.4m 70 Bolton -£5.4m
25 Burton £0.3m 71 Nottingham Forest -£5.6m
26 Shrewsbury £0.3m 72 West Brom -£6m
27 Gillingham £0.1m 73 Middlesbrough -£6.6m
28 Plymouth £0.1m 74 Wigan -£7.7m
29 Newport £0.1m 75 Sunderland -£10.2m
30 Yeovil £0.1m 76 Charlton -£10.4m
31 Walsall no profit/loss 77 Bournemouth -£11m
32 Barnet no profit/loss 78 Everton -£13m
33 Grimsby -£0.04m 79 Blackburn -£16.8m
34 Cheltenham -£0.1m 80 Reading -£21m
35 Carlisle -£0.1m 81 Sheffield Wed -£21m
36 Mansfield -£0.1m 82 Bristol City -£25m
37 Bradford -£0.3m 83 Watford -£31m
38 Rochdale -£0.3m 84 Stoke -£32m
39 Crawley -£0.3m 85 Aston Villa -£35m
40 Morecambe -£0.4m 86 Cardiff -£36m
41 Oldham -£0.5m 87 Crystal Palace -£36m
42 Rotherham -£0.5m 88 Manchester Utd -£37m
43 Wimbledon -£0.5m 89 Birmingham -£37m
44 Wycombe -£0.7m 90 QPR -£38m
45 Crewe -£0.8m 91 Fulham -£45m
46 Cambridge -£0.8m 92 Wolves -£57m

My comparative club who Orient might aspire to is Barnsley. They reported a profit of £13m.

BTW 32 clubs in your list never lost money - some of them a bit of a surprise. But that means 60 out of the 92 lost money, not 52. I'm fast losing confidence in your handling of the numbers.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:41 pm**

Did you miss the 52 of the 72 EFL clubs bit Max?

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:45 pm**

y o y o y wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:41 pm Did you miss the 52 of the 72 EFL clubs bit Max?

Probably but its all EFL to me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:57 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:29 pm
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:26 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:32 pm

Yes it is rare. Lower league football is also undergoing an existential crisis at the moment.
Please list all clubs who are fan owned as i think it is not Rare .
Many thanks
I've got better things to do with my time thanks. I'll give you Exeter as one example but I can tell you it is rare.

So weve got 2 out of the bottom 48 clubs named

Wycombe & Exeter.

Most others are owned by benevolent types.

Some arent benevolent ie Bury .

But rara.

Do you think we were all born yeaterday ?

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:23 pm**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:57 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:29 pm
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:26 pm

Please list all clubs who are fan owned as i think it is not Rare .
Many thanks
I've got better things to do with my time thanks. I'll give you Exeter as one example but I can tell you it is rare.
So weve got 2 out of the bottom 48 clubs named

Wycombe & Exeter.

Most others are owned by benevolent types.

Some arent benevolent ie Bury .

But rara.

Do you think we were all born yeaterday ?

I really don't understand the direction you are taking this.

I said that fan-owned clubs are rare, you've agreed.

I've said that you have to hope for well meaning owners- your point about Bury proves that.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:36 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:10 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:42 am

We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

I was pointing out this really.

Most clubs are owned by benevolent chairmen/owners .

Some may get creative to re-coup some money ie Hearn or
Like the fool at Bury.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:47 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:25 pm
Thor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:18 pm Nonsense, the club is in my opinion safes under it's current guardianship. Who owns the ground is irrelevant cos that bit of land don't pay the Bill's!!

As far as we've never owned a ground again that's irrelevant cos if that had been the case who knows what any of the previous owners would have done with that asset.
What happens if the pension fund decide to up the rent to £1m+ a year, or to evict us and develop the land for housing?

There are laws against such behaviour.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:48 pm**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:36 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:10 pm

We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

I was pointing out this really.

Most clubs are owned by benevolent chairmen/owners .

Some may get creative to re-coup some money ie Hearn or
Like the fool at Bury.

I would argue that Hearn and Steve Dale were far from benevolent.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:54 pm**

Go on Exeter making a nice profit, does anyone know what they are doing down there to produce such a positive number.

Well done them as well.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:17 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:54 pm Go on Exeter making a nice profit, does anyone know what they are doing down there to produce such a positive number.

Well done them as well.

I think i can help explain this one. It's a simple matter of income exceeding expenses.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:18 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:31 pm

My comparative club who Orient might aspire to is Barnsley. They reported a profit of £13m.

BTW 32 clubs in your list never lost money - some of them a bit of a surprise. But that means 60 out of the 92 lost money, not 52. I'm fast losing confidence in your handling of the numbers.

Lol, this was a report in the Times, so don't shoot the messenger!

As for losing confidence in the numbers you have us aspiring to Barnsley - a club who's average through the last few seasons has been about 3000 more than our capacity - and through the past decade has never been below our capacity.

Barnsley had an exceptional year - and they made 12.8m mainly through £13.5m of transfer profits. The following year they only made £3.5m on transfer profits and managed to lose 0.2m. They are neither a club we should aspire to be nor a financial role model.

Delusional.

Posted: **Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:25 pm**

Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:48 pm
tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:36 pm
Red_Army wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:21 pm

We are essentially hoping that we have benevolent owners which is a rarity in football. I believe we are lucky in this regard at the moment, but it might not always be that way.

I was pointing out this really.

Most clubs are owned by benevolent chairmen/owners .

Some may get creative to re-coup some money ie Hearn or
Like the fool at Bury.
I would argue that Hearn and Steve Dale were far from benevolent.

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