Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:11 pm Why are you so wrong on practically everything?

This is not about those that can afford it. This is about them being a barrier to those who CANNOT afford it.

Which is why I said there are two different arguments. The value of internships is beyond doubt good. The barrier thing, is a different matter and one that I have some sympathy with.

The question then becomes do we ban internships because some people cannot afford them? Is that morally justified or just a case of if everybody can’t do it then nobody should.

There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm**

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:11 pm Why are you so wrong on practically everything?

This is not about those that can afford it. This is about them being a barrier to those who CANNOT afford it.
Which is why I said there are two different arguments. The value of internships is beyond doubt good. The barrier thing, is a different matter and one that I have some sympathy with.

The question then becomes do we ban internships because some people cannot afford them? Is that morally justified or just a case of if everybody can’t do it then nobody should.

There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.

More bollocks. We don't ban them we legislate to ensure they are paid for by the employers.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm**

Max if the child works on an internship and receives expenses and lives at home, what is there to support? The food bill does not increase, the heating etc don't increase his expenses are covered so rather than sitting at home playing on a playstation or xbox they are out working trying to start a career.

Internships work in my opinon.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm**

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm
There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.

Oh. My. Word.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:27 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm
There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.
Oh. My. Word.

So what is your reply, should we or not. This is a point on principle rather than the example, holidays. Should we ban something because not everybody can afford it?

I really am interested in peoples views.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:28 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:18 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:09 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:02 pm

You're talking bollocks but carry on.

His opportunity arose because of the advantages he had in life provided by a well off family and not from the internship.
Max you are being really silly mate. There are two issues here, the first being the value of internships and beyond doubt for many people they are a bloody good thing. That Max is beyond sensible dispute.

The second point is whether or not they help those who can afford it. Sure. But unless you support a race to the bottom that’s the way it is, pity.
More bollocks but carry on.

As RedO says nobody is disputing the value of internships. In fact my son did one over the summer for a famous politician and didn't get paid except for Ex's. He couldn't have done it were he not supported by his parents.

Therefore, the point that people who do not have that privilege are excluded from providing their labour for free to highly profitable capitalist enterprises.

Your second paragraph is just utter bollocks and I'm not even going to bother replying to it. Your quest to troll has robbed you of the ability to argue rationally.

HYPOCRITE!

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:28 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm Max if the child works on an internship and receives expenses and lives at home, what is there to support? The food bill does not increase, the heating etc don't increase his expenses are covered so rather than sitting at home playing on a playstation or xbox they are out working trying to start a career.

Internships work in my opinon.

Err - I gave you an example above about my son working in London but obviously he usually lives in Scotland. He didn't come home every night for his dinner during his internship. Your son might have but that hardly applies to anyone NOT living in London with mummy and daddy does it?

Internships work for kids like yours and mine because as relatively affluent parents we are able to remove the financial barriers that prevent other kids from taking up internships.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:28 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:11 pm Why are you so wrong on practically everything?

This is not about those that can afford it. This is about them being a barrier to those who CANNOT afford it.
Which is why I said there are two different arguments. The value of internships is beyond doubt good. The barrier thing, is a different matter and one that I have some sympathy with.

The question then becomes do we ban internships because some people cannot afford them? Is that morally justified or just a case of if everybody can’t do it then nobody should.

There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.
More bollocks. We don't ban them we legislate to ensure they are paid for by the employers.

Max just in case you don't know it is illegal to employ an internship and not pay them.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:30 pm**

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:27 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm
There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.
Oh. My. Word.
So what is your reply, should we or not. This is a point on principle rather than the example, holidays. Should we ban something because not everybody can afford it?

I really am interested in peoples views.

No, I'm sorry Doh. I'm not going to respond to straight up trolling, you'll have to find someone else to bite.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:31 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:28 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:18 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:09 pm

Max you are being really silly mate. There are two issues here, the first being the value of internships and beyond doubt for many people they are a bloody good thing. That Max is beyond sensible dispute.

The second point is whether or not they help those who can afford it. Sure. But unless you support a race to the bottom that’s the way it is, pity.
More bollocks but carry on.

As RedO says nobody is disputing the value of internships. In fact my son did one over the summer for a famous politician and didn't get paid except for Ex's. He couldn't have done it were he not supported by his parents.

Therefore, the point that people who do not have that privilege are excluded from providing their labour for free to highly profitable capitalist enterprises.

Your second paragraph is just utter bollocks and I'm not even going to bother replying to it. Your quest to troll has robbed you of the ability to argue rationally.
HYPOCRITE!

Not really. I told him I was against not being paid, as is he, but in the end it was his decision not mine.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 pm**

I read that 67% of internship roles are offered a fulltime role in that company, if that stat is correct then it shows that they work quite well.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:34 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 pm I read that 67% of internship roles are offered a fulltime role in that company, if that stat is correct then it shows that they work quite well.

FOR THOSE THAT CAN AFFORD TO WORK WITHOUT PAY IN THE FIRST INSTANCE.

What is so difficult to grasp about this?

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:35 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:30 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:27 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Oh. My. Word.
So what is your reply, should we or not. This is a point on principle rather than the example, holidays. Should we ban something because not everybody can afford it?

I really am interested in peoples views.
No, I'm sorry Doh. I'm not going to respond to straight up trolling, you'll have to find someone else to bite.

Disagreed. I don’t think he is wumming. I honestly believe he really is this stupid.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:35 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 pm I read that 67% of internship roles are offered a fulltime role in that company, if that stat is correct then it shows that they work quite well.

But the ones who can't participate aren't in your 67%. That is point.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:42 pm**

I have not said people should not be paid. I left a company due to the way they treated staff over pay and bonuses as I defended my team and others against the C Suite. I stood up for my team, fought for them and others and decided I didn't want to work there any longer as it didn't meet my expectations against the actions of the C Suite.

I am not defending big business, I just think that internships work, and yes the 33% of families that can't support their children is hard, but at the same time you can't take one on if you don't pay them.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:46 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:28 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:23 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:19 pm

Which is why I said there are two different arguments. The value of internships is beyond doubt good. The barrier thing, is a different matter and one that I have some sympathy with.

The question then becomes do we ban internships because some people cannot afford them? Is that morally justified or just a case of if everybody can’t do it then nobody should.

There are people out there who can’t afford a foreign holiday, so let’s ban them for everybody.
More bollocks. We don't ban them we legislate to ensure they are paid for by the employers.
Max just in case you don't know it is illegal to employ an internship and not pay them.

This is a fuzzy area from memory. Depends of their employment status. Maybe different now

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:47 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:42 pm I have not said people should not be paid. I left a company due to the way they treated staff over pay and bonuses as I defended my team and others against the C Suite. I stood up for my team, fought for them and others and decided I didn't want to work there any longer as it didn't meet my expectations against the actions of the C Suite.

I am not defending big business, I just think that internships work, and yes the 33% of families that can't support their children is hard, but at the same time you can't take one on if you don't pay them.

Hang on, the 33% are the ones that don't get a job at the end. At least get your figures correct if you are going to miss the point.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:47 pm**

Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:42 pm I have not said people should not be paid. I left a company due to the way they treated staff over pay and bonuses as I defended my team and others against the C Suite. I stood up for my team, fought for them and others and decided I didn't want to work there any longer as it didn't meet my expectations against the actions of the C Suite.

I am not defending big business, I just think that internships work, and yes the 33% of families that can't support their children is hard, but at the same time you can't take one on if you don't pay them.

What 33% of families that can't afford to support their children whilst they work for free? It will be a much, much bigger percentage than that.

It's the same as with private schools, private tutors etc, these children all getting a head start on their peers from poorer families.

The biggest indicator as to whether a child will be rich isn't their intelligence, it's whether or not they have wealthy parents.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:49 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:35 pm
Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 pm I read that 67% of internship roles are offered a fulltime role in that company, if that stat is correct then it shows that they work quite well.
But the ones who can't participate aren't in your 67%. That is point.

So Max. Should we ban internships because some people can’t afford them?

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:50 pm**

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:49 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:35 pm
Thor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:32 pm I read that 67% of internship roles are offered a fulltime role in that company, if that stat is correct then it shows that they work quite well.
But the ones who can't participate aren't in your 67%. That is point.
So Max. Should we ban internships because some people can’t afford them?

Unpaid ones, yes. Everyone should be paid for their work.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:57 pm**

If unpaid internships are seen as the only way in to certain industries, that means that firms can effectively exploit young people's ambition for some free labour. It also means that certain demographics will have no way of ever getting into these industries.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:00 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:50 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:49 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:35 pm

But the ones who can't participate aren't in your 67%. That is point.
So Max. Should we ban internships because some people can’t afford them?
Unpaid ones, yes. Everyone should be paid for their work.

Correct. End of debate. We win.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:03 pm**

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:50 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:49 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:35 pm

But the ones who can't participate aren't in your 67%. That is point.
So Max. Should we ban internships because some people can’t afford them?
Unpaid ones, yes. Everyone should be paid for their work.

So when I worked unpaid in a school for four years I was being exploited, despite the amazing satisfaction I got out of it. And hospital visitors or prison visitors should get paid for the work they do. And political party workers who contribute their time for free should get paid. Not to mention those people who drive the sick and elderly to and from hospitals as volunteers should get paid for their work.

Sounds like a well thought out solution Max.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:05 pm**

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:03 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:50 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:49 pm

So Max. Should we ban internships because some people can’t afford them?
Unpaid ones, yes. Everyone should be paid for their work.
So when I worked unpaid in a school for four years I was being exploited, despite the amazing satisfaction I got out of it. And hospital visitors or prison visitors should get paid for the work they do. And political party workers who contribute their time for free should get paid. Not to mention those people who drive the sick and elderly to and from hospitals as volunteers should get paid for their work.

Sounds like a well thought out solution Max.

You are now comparing apples with oranges. We won this debate. You lost. Suck it up.

Posted: **Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:11 pm**

dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:03 pm
RedO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:50 pm
dOh Nut wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:49 pm

So Max. Should we ban internships because some people can’t afford them?
Unpaid ones, yes. Everyone should be paid for their work.
So when I worked unpaid in a school for four years I was being exploited, despite the amazing satisfaction I got out of it. And hospital visitors or prison visitors should get paid for the work they do. And political party workers who contribute their time for free should get paid. Not to mention those people who drive the sick and elderly to and from hospitals as volunteers should get paid for their work.

Sounds like a well thought out solution Max.

You are conflating voluntary unpaid work, done in people's free time, with necessary steps to get a foothold into certain industries.

There is no comparison between my internship I did as a 20 year old and my grandmother volunteering a couple of hours work a week in the local hospital shop.

If I really wanted to argue the point, I would argue that if society worked properly, there would be no need for charity, but that is utopian.

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