Independent Leyton Orient Forum

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:01 am

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:45 am It is noticeable that there are three ex dagenham players in this team

I don't know if all three Ling / Jmd / wilkinson ever played in DR at the same time in league 2 as DR do go up and down between the two divisions.

I remember DR going quite well at times in div 2 under Still and I don't think DR were conceding two goals every match- even the year they went down.

The point may have some relevance - that these three are decent players hence that why we signed them further Ling was a regular England C right back so he is a good player generally

I also think the difference in l2 and last season is being overblown and the gap is much closer - hence players were signed believing they would be capable of league two.

On the radio it said by dave and his co presenter that the first goal was scored by a player who played at Weymouth last year and he was going well in league two this year and Weymouth are further down the football ladder - so it's not correct all this talk about the difference by our staff and players. I wish they would all stop this and focus on the team without that comment as all it does is reinforce mental negativity in a compound way.

If we were doing better with a few more points all this talk about stepping up would not be even highlighted as it is and I notice players and management over the last moth of so as the results have gone poor have highlighted the alleged difference but I do recall an interview with ML where he specifically said that he was going to look at recordings to see the standard of league two and that was after we got promoted " to see what was there" or words to that effect

Our preparation each game is more that just tactics and fitness

In any job you need to go to work believing in who you are and the colleagues you work with are capable in that environment for success in your own job to occur - best way is to get team talks pre and post match with no reference with league two comparing to last year league 2 we all know that we as team when performing correctly are capable by this group.

I guess that's where the successful managers and clubs are different they attack the preparations in a more holistic successful way - very basic if you think about it really

There is definitely a step up, Ling has made that mistake once in his career already when we got promoted to L1 and seems to be history repeating itself.

At tinpot NL level you've got part-time sides who haven't got the nous or the fitness to compete, you've got poor strikers who who miss easy one on ones (we got away with some real let-offs at times last season) but back in the EFL you get punished.

Based on Embleton and Coulson's interview where they both confessed to being surprised by the step up in quality it appears Ling didn't share the result of his viewings

It's all very well saying "if we had a few more wins" but that's a moot point. We're not getting them because of the errors and being punished by teams who are better drilled, fitter and more ruthless.

The other crux of the situation is we took a good NL squad, removed its two best assets, didn't fix the issues (CM and quality ST cover) then put them in a division above with inexperienced manager. One of the two would make life difficult, putting both together leads us to where we are now, in a relegation dogfight

It could well be Embleton is bearing the brunt of decisions made by Ling but seeing as we don't know exactly who is deciding what the interim manager will have to take the flak.

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:15 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:04 am

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:01 am

There is definitely a step up, Ling has made that mistake once in his career already when we got promoted to L1 and seems to be history repeating itself.

At tinpot NL level you've got part-time sides who haven't got the nous or the fitness to compete, you've got poor strikers who who miss easy one on ones (we got away with some real let-offs at times last season) but back in the EFL you get punished.

Based on Embleton and Coulson's interview where they both confessed to being surprised by the step up in quality it appears Ling didn't share the result of his viewings

It's all very well saying "if we had a few more wins" but that's a moot point. We're not getting them because of the errors and being punished by teams who are better drilled, fitter and more ruthless.

The other crux of the situation is we took a good NL squad, removed its two best assets, didn't fix the issues (CM and quality ST cover) then put them in a division above with inexperienced manager. One of the two would make life difficult, putting both together leads us to where we are now, in a relegation dogfight

It could well be Embleton is bearing the brunt of decisions made by Ling but seeing as we don't know exactly who is deciding what the interim manager will have to take the flak.

Good analysis.

I am unable to go to any matches. When you say teams are fitter how can that be we have so many back room staff covering this aspect, all all three coaches have been around a great deal to know the fitness level needed - there is also the new degree qualified fitness guy

Do you describe rather than fitness a perceived lack of cohesion on the style of play or tactics at times that gives the impression players are not competing to a ball like the opposition ?

I really amazed at footballers being called out on fitness when you have tennis players like Federer at his age and Nadal which just played I believe around five hours in the USA open and won

If one man can play tennis for that length of time how does a footballer in a team of 10 outfield have any question on their fitness when they are full time sports preople

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:01 am

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:45 am It is noticeable that there are three ex dagenham players in this team

I don't know if all three Ling / Jmd / wilkinson ever played in DR at the same time in league 2 as DR do go up and down between the two divisions.

I remember DR going quite well at times in div 2 under Still and I don't think DR were conceding two goals every match- even the year they went down.

The point may have some relevance - that these three are decent players hence that why we signed them further Ling was a regular England C right back so he is a good player generally

I also think the difference in l2 and last season is being overblown and the gap is much closer - hence players were signed believing they would be capable of league two.

On the radio it said by dave and his co presenter that the first goal was scored by a player who played at Weymouth last year and he was going well in league two this year and Weymouth are further down the football ladder - so it's not correct all this talk about the difference by our staff and players. I wish they would all stop this and focus on the team without that comment as all it does is reinforce mental negativity in a compound way.

If we were doing better with a few more points all this talk about stepping up would not be even highlighted as it is and I notice players and management over the last moth of so as the results have gone poor have highlighted the alleged difference but I do recall an interview with ML where he specifically said that he was going to look at recordings to see the standard of league two and that was after we got promoted " to see what was there" or words to that effect

Our preparation each game is more that just tactics and fitness

In any job you need to go to work believing in who you are and the colleagues you work with are capable in that environment for success in your own job to occur - best way is to get team talks pre and post match with no reference with league two comparing to last year league 2 we all know that we as team when performing correctly are capable by this group.

I guess that's where the successful managers and clubs are different they attack the preparations in a more holistic successful way - very basic if you think about it really

There is definitely a step up, Ling has made that mistake once in his career already when we got promoted to L1 and seems to be history repeating itself.

At tinpot NL level you've got part-time sides who haven't got the nous or the fitness to compete, you've got poor strikers who who miss easy one on ones (we got away with some real let-offs at times last season) but back in the EFL you get punished.

Based on Embleton and Coulson's interview where they both confessed to being surprised by the step up in quality it appears Ling didn't share the result of his viewings

It's all very well saying "if we had a few more wins" but that's a moot point. We're not getting them because of the errors and being punished by teams who are better drilled, fitter and more ruthless.

The other crux of the situation is we took a good NL squad, removed its two best assets, didn't fix the issues (CM and quality ST cover) then put them in a division above with inexperienced manager. One of the two would make life difficult, putting both together leads us to where we are now, in a relegation dogfight

It could well be Embleton is bearing the brunt of decisions made by Ling but seeing as we don't know exactly who is deciding what the interim manager will have to take the flak.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:01 am

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:45 am It is noticeable that there are three ex dagenham players in this team

I don't know if all three Ling / Jmd / wilkinson ever played in DR at the same time in league 2 as DR do go up and down between the two divisions.

I remember DR going quite well at times in div 2 under Still and I don't think DR were conceding two goals every match- even the year they went down.

The point may have some relevance - that these three are decent players hence that why we signed them further Ling was a regular England C right back so he is a good player generally

I also think the difference in l2 and last season is being overblown and the gap is much closer - hence players were signed believing they would be capable of league two.

On the radio it said by dave and his co presenter that the first goal was scored by a player who played at Weymouth last year and he was going well in league two this year and Weymouth are further down the football ladder - so it's not correct all this talk about the difference by our staff and players. I wish they would all stop this and focus on the team without that comment as all it does is reinforce mental negativity in a compound way.

If we were doing better with a few more points all this talk about stepping up would not be even highlighted as it is and I notice players and management over the last moth of so as the results have gone poor have highlighted the alleged difference but I do recall an interview with ML where he specifically said that he was going to look at recordings to see the standard of league two and that was after we got promoted " to see what was there" or words to that effect

Our preparation each game is more that just tactics and fitness

In any job you need to go to work believing in who you are and the colleagues you work with are capable in that environment for success in your own job to occur - best way is to get team talks pre and post match with no reference with league two comparing to last year league 2 we all know that we as team when performing correctly are capable by this group.

I guess that's where the successful managers and clubs are different they attack the preparations in a more holistic successful way - very basic if you think about it really

There is definitely a step up, Ling has made that mistake once in his career already when we got promoted to L1 and seems to be history repeating itself.

At tinpot NL level you've got part-time sides who haven't got the nous or the fitness to compete, you've got poor strikers who who miss easy one on ones (we got away with some real let-offs at times last season) but back in the EFL you get punished.

Based on Embleton and Coulson's interview where they both confessed to being surprised by the step up in quality it appears Ling didn't share the result of his viewings

It's all very well saying "if we had a few more wins" but that's a moot point. We're not getting them because of the errors and being punished by teams who are better drilled, fitter and more ruthless.

The other crux of the situation is we took a good NL squad, removed its two best assets, didn't fix the issues (CM and quality ST cover) then put them in a division above with inexperienced manager. One of the two would make life difficult, putting both together leads us to where we are now, in a relegation dogfight

It could well be Embleton is bearing the brunt of decisions made by Ling but seeing as we don't know exactly who is deciding what the interim manager will have to take the flak.

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:23 am I like the term ‘drifter’. That’s exactly our issue, we have far too many of them.

Marvin and Coulson keep getting flak for misplacing long balls but they shouldn’t be doing that. The only reason they have to resort to that is because too many players hide when we have the ball. Our midfield is a joke.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:35 pm Why was Gorman dropped? He was one of the better players this past few games and once again wright does absolutely nothing in a game and stays on for the full 90 mins. Bizarre.

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:23 am I like the term ‘drifter’. That’s exactly our issue, we have far too many of them.

Marvin and Coulson keep getting flak for misplacing long balls but they shouldn’t be doing that. The only reason they have to resort to that is because too many players hide when we have the ball. Our midfield is a joke.

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:15 am
I am unable to go to any matches. When you say teams are fitter how can that be we have so many back room staff covering this aspect, all all three coaches have been around a great deal to know the fitness level needed - there is also the new degree qualified fitness guy

Do you describe rather than fitness a perceived lack of cohesion on the style of play or tactics at times that gives the impression players are not competing to a ball like the opposition ?

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:22 pm

UpminsterO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:15 am
I am unable to go to any matches. When you say teams are fitter how can that be we have so many back room staff covering this aspect, all all three coaches have been around a great deal to know the fitness level needed - there is also the new degree qualified fitness guy

Do you describe rather than fitness a perceived lack of cohesion on the style of play or tactics at times that gives the impression players are not competing to a ball like the opposition ?

If we compare to last season the players back then we're still running through brick walls for the full 90+ minutes. You'd get Bonne full pelt sprinting down the line to get to a hoof into the corner or Clay tracking back length of the pitch to make a challenge.

This season we hit around 80 minutes, sometimes even earlier and the players look whacked. Hands on hips, jogging back, unable to keep up with play as it transitions. Wilkinson in some games starts off competing for headers, running the line etc but by second half looks shot and ready to come off.

Clay compared to the swashbuckling player from last season is puffing by second half and only making half-hearted attempts to win the ball by time we get to that 80 min mark. He's needed that time out the starting line-up.

Brill is 50% great saves and 50% rooted to the spot this season, again different player to what we saw last season and still carrying effects of missing pre-season with injury imo.

There just seems a general malaise about the squad fitness wise. They don't look sharp enough to press and compete for the full 90. Our pre-season schedule didn't help as they had it far too easy against a bunch of part-time sides and it seems there was a bit of complacency about stepping up to L2 from NL. Also have to wonder how much difference the change of fitness coach has had in this too.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:53 am Saying all that, I still don’t think Ross wants this job and it really shows in our performances.

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:22 pm Don't really buy the point about fitness. Yes there will be a step up in intensity (which is the case when going up any level) but the players should be capable of bridging that. Only about 3 or 4 National League teams are genuinely part-time, the vast majority will train full-time now. The main difference is that last season we had Bonne who would run all day and put defences under pressure, and him and Koroma could hold the ball far up the pitch. This season the ball is coming back too easily and opposition defenders and midfielders have too much time to play good balls into strikers' feet, meaning we're inevitably going to have to do more chasing around.

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:23 am I like the term ‘drifter’. That’s exactly our issue, we have far too many of them.

Marvin and Coulson keep getting flak for misplacing long balls but they shouldn’t be doing that. The only reason they have to resort to that is because too many players hide when we have the ball. Our midfield is a joke.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:55 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:22 pm Don't really buy the point about fitness. Yes there will be a step up in intensity (which is the case when going up any level) but the players should be capable of bridging that. Only about 3 or 4 National League teams are genuinely part-time, the vast majority will train full-time now. The main difference is that last season we had Bonne who would run all day and put defences under pressure, and him and Koroma could hold the ball far up the pitch. This season the ball is coming back too easily and opposition defenders and midfielders have too much time to play good balls into strikers' feet, meaning we're inevitably going to have to do more chasing around.

So in not so many words you're suggesting the replacements aren't good enough or the system we're playing doesn't suit them?

Last season was all about being able to withstand the physical battering and assault and be willing to literally fight to win games. Now it's a bit more technical and we're coming up against flair players rather than non-league cloggers we're chasing shadows. Not chasing them with enough vigour either.

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:28 pm

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:55 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:22 pm Don't really buy the point about fitness. Yes there will be a step up in intensity (which is the case when going up any level) but the players should be capable of bridging that. Only about 3 or 4 National League teams are genuinely part-time, the vast majority will train full-time now. The main difference is that last season we had Bonne who would run all day and put defences under pressure, and him and Koroma could hold the ball far up the pitch. This season the ball is coming back too easily and opposition defenders and midfielders have too much time to play good balls into strikers' feet, meaning we're inevitably going to have to do more chasing around.

So in not so many words you're suggesting the replacements aren't good enough or the system we're playing doesn't suit them?

Last season was all about being able to withstand the physical battering and assault and be willing to literally fight to win games. Now it's a bit more technical and we're coming up against flair players rather than non-league cloggers we're chasing shadows. Not chasing them with enough vigour either.

It’s hilarious that we have stooped so low that our fans can, with all sincerity, talk about the flair of Division 4 footballers.