Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Byways1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am For what it’s worth, I think they have done a brilliant job so far, but a lot will depend if they are prepared to finance a 1m+ loss every year to progress.
Talk of breaking even is a tall order, we will have to get regular gates of 7000 PAYING customers for that to happen or slash the wage bill.

Not just 7,000 paying, but 7,000 paying full whack. No kids for a quid or footy for a fiver. Or concessions. Or kids.
I don’t know match day turnover, would be surprised if Orient average any more than about £10/seat per game at present; probably sell less than a third of seats at full price.
I suspect wage bills will be cut at many clubs in next few years.

RientO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 pm

Byways1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am For what it’s worth, I think they have done a brilliant job so far, but a lot will depend if they are prepared to finance a 1m+ loss every year to progress.
Talk of breaking even is a tall order, we will have to get regular gates of 7000 PAYING customers for that to happen or slash the wage bill.

Not just 7,000 paying, but 7,000 paying full whack. No kids for a quid or footy for a fiver. Or concessions. Or kids.
I don’t know match day turnover, would be surprised if Orient average any more than about £10/seat per game at present; probably sell less than a third of seats at full price.
I suspect wage bills will be cut at many clubs in next few years.

Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am

RientO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 pm

Byways1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am For what it’s worth, I think they have done a brilliant job so far, but a lot will depend if they are prepared to finance a 1m+ loss every year to progress.
Talk of breaking even is a tall order, we will have to get regular gates of 7000 PAYING customers for that to happen or slash the wage bill.

Not just 7,000 paying, but 7,000 paying full whack. No kids for a quid or footy for a fiver. Or concessions. Or kids.
I don’t know match day turnover, would be surprised if Orient average any more than about £10/seat per game at present; probably sell less than a third of seats at full price.
I suspect wage bills will be cut at many clubs in next few years.

Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It will carry on until Kent Teague decides he doesn't want to fund us anymore, until that time, he will continue to fund the loss

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:35 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am

RientO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 pm

Not just 7,000 paying, but 7,000 paying full whack. No kids for a quid or footy for a fiver. Or concessions. Or kids.
I don’t know match day turnover, would be surprised if Orient average any more than about £10/seat per game at present; probably sell less than a third of seats at full price.
I suspect wage bills will be cut at many clubs in next few years.

Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It will carry on until Kent Teague decides he doesn't want to fund us anymore, until that time, he will continue to fund the loss

The loses are as bad as Bury’s a couple of years back and they own their own ground.
You cannot rely on some bloke to cover a loss of over 50k a week that is unsustainable.

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:59 am

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:35 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am
Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It will carry on until Kent Teague decides he doesn't want to fund us anymore, until that time, he will continue to fund the loss

The loses are as bad as Bury’s a couple of years back and they own their own ground.
You cannot rely on some bloke to cover a loss of over 50k a week that is unsustainable.

Tell this to certain boarders who thought we were wrong to sell players and should be breaking the bank to sign more.

Terrible what's happening to teams like Bolton & Bury and from a moral perspective massive clubs should do more to prevent teams from going bust but on the other hand nowadays all semi/pro football clubs are run like businesses and businesses don't help their competition.

PotatOhead wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:36 pm Terrible what's happening to teams like Bolton & Bury and from a moral perspective massive clubs should do more to prevent teams from going bust but on the other hand nowadays all semi/pro football clubs are run like businesses and businesses don't help their competition.

Expecting bigger clubs to step in when the Boltons and Bury struggle creates a moral hazard. If they cant budget and live within their means why should they be saved?

As Spike noted on another thread the problem is with the distribution of money within the game and in this the FA/PL/EL are failing all the clubs.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:53 pm Expecting bigger clubs to step in when Bolton and Bury struggle creates a moral hazard. If they cant budget and live within their means why should they be saved?

As Spike noted on another thread the problem is with the distribution of money within the game and in this the FA/PL/EL are failing all the clubs.

If money was taken from the Premier League and given to teams in League One and League Two, the top 6 would be forming a new league with the top European teams or cutting their own TV deals as is the case with Benfica. The other 14 in the Premier League have compromised as have UEFA to accommodate the requirements of the top 6 English clubs.

RientO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:51 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:53 pm Expecting bigger clubs to step in when Bolton and Bury struggle creates a moral hazard. If they cant budget and live within their means why should they be saved?

As Spike noted on another thread the problem is with the distribution of money within the game and in this the FA/PL/EL are failing all the clubs.

If money was taken from the Premier League and given to teams in League One and League Two, the top 6 would be forming a new league with the top European teams or cutting their own TV deals as is the case with Benfica. The other 14 in the Premier League have compromised as have UEFA to accommodate the requirements of the top 6 English clubs.

But isn't that what the top 6 and UEFA are planning anyway?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:03 am But isn't that what the top 6 and UEFA are planning anyway?

It seems that way. Unless the top 6 get more money from UEFA (and most likely Premier League) they will form their own European/World Super League with games played any time, any place, anywhere.

RientO wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:13 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:03 am But isn't that what the top 6 and UEFA are planning anyway?

It seems that way. Unless the top 6 get more money from UEFA (and most likely Premier League) they will form their own European/World Super League with games played any time, any place, anywhere.

A European super league is inevitable.

Talk of a European super League has been going since I was a child I'm now pushing 50

JimbO wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:10 pm Talk of a European super League has been going since I was a child I'm now pushing 50

It will happen within the next few years.
Money talks.

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

This has concerned me as we seem to be losing more than ever despite higher attendances than we've had for some time and all Macklin's work maximising sponsorship etc.

Supposedly all the Beelzebub debt was wiped out at takeover so where are we losing so much? Is it just player wages or are there some other huge costs (that energy deal saving published recently was a pretty eye-opening number, for example)

A fair chunk of that loss going forward must be down to the academy, given the sheer number of staff there to run it. Still not convinced of its worth going forward, especially with the new rules coming in to remove tribunals for youth player compensation.

You might make a Koroma every 5-10 years but equally training up a PL reject could yield similar results without having to bear the costs of nurturing them for 5+ years to get 1 season out of them before they leave.

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

2-35 m is correct I was looking at the total including the half a million shortfall when they took over.
So 1’9 million? Still a lot.
If they can get it down to 1’1 m this season then that will be more manageable.
It’s a balancing act though as we must remain competitive on the football front.

Byways1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:17 pm

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

2-35 m is correct I was looking at the total including the half a million shortfall when they took over.
So 1’9 million? Still a lot.
If they can get it down to 1’1 m this season then that will be more manageable.
It’s a balancing act though as we must remain competitive on the football front.

We wasn't losing this in L1 under Hearn. We had a fully paid up L1 squad with smaller crowds than now and we were not losing that much. The club have also really reved up the comercial side with everything but the flower pots in the board room sponsored by a company of some description. Surely this squad does not cost as much as the squad in L1 in wages, so where are the losses coming from. I saw this before and was concerned.

JimbO wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:10 pm Talk of a European super League has been going since I was a child I'm now pushing 50

Me too, but since then we’ve had the Champions League and then the Europa League. Now we’re likely to get Europa League 2, so we’re a lot closer to it than we ever were and these hedges against it are showing signs of strain.

Razzmachaz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:40 pm

Byways1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:17 pm

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am
It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

2-35 m is correct I was looking at the total including the half a million shortfall when they took over.
So 1’9 million? Still a lot.
If they can get it down to 1’1 m this season then that will be more manageable.
It’s a balancing act though as we must remain competitive on the football front.

We wasn't losing this in L1 under Hearn. We had a fully paid up L1 squad with smaller crowds than now and we were not losing that much. The club have also really reved up the comercial side with everything but the flower pots in the board room sponsored by a company of some description. Surely this squad does not cost as much as the squad in L1 in wages, so where are the losses coming from. I saw this before and was concerned.

I believe that historic issues were still being found and paid for in both years, or at least that was the reason given. It’s pretty believable I’d say.

Razzmachaz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:40 pm

Byways1 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:17 pm

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am
It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

2-35 m is correct I was looking at the total including the half a million shortfall when they took over.
So 1’9 million? Still a lot.
If they can get it down to 1’1 m this season then that will be more manageable.
It’s a balancing act though as we must remain competitive on the football front.
Running a club like Orient is a thankless task.

We wasn't losing this in L1 under Hearn. We had a fully paid up L1 squad with smaller crowds than now and we were not losing that much. The club have also really reved up the comercial side with everything but the flower pots in the board room sponsored by a company of some description. Surely this squad does not cost as much as the squad in L1 in wages, so where are the losses coming from. I saw this before and was concerned.

Not true.
In the Two years before the Italians took over we lost 1-3 and 1-4 m and about the same for most of the previous years.

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

No apology coming your way
I’ll give you a clue
Projected!!

Lucky7 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:17 pm

A Pedant wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:07 am

Byways1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:06 am Blimey,
Just had a look at last years accounts, 2.8 m loss? How long can that carryon for?
That is horrendous.

It was £2.35m, and was for 2017/18 - i.e. the first season under Travis/Teague. According to this year's AGM in April, the loss for 2018/19 was estimated to be around £1.9m and forecast for this season in League Two was £1.1m.

No apology coming your way
I’ll give you a clue
Projected!!

Nice to know that you are not man enough to apologise when you are wrong.
So you think an estimated loss of 1.9 million is not close to being correct? OK.

You smell like Esteban byways
Nothing to apologise for
I’m pretty good at maths and listening
You got your so called stats from a topic on here

Lucky7 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:55 pm You smell like Esteban byways
Nothing to apologise for
I’m pretty good at maths and listening
You got your so called stats from a topic on here

Well you’re not very good at either.
The figure is not projected it is estimated on the previous 10 months which they had at hand.
I will expect the loses to be very close to the stated figure.

Byways1 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:21 pm

Lucky7 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:55 pm You smell like Esteban byways
Nothing to apologise for
I’m pretty good at maths and listening
You got your so called stats from a topic on here

Well you’re not very good at either.
The figure is not projected it is estimated on the previous 10 months which they had at hand.
I will expect the loses to be very close to the stated figure.

Maybe if you attended these meetings instead of C&P other people’s topics I’d believe you Esteban Buckingham Byways
Great name though