Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:14 pm

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:01 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:58 am

I suspect you are worrying unnecessarily about old people. The whole funding issue could be solved by a wholesale redistrbution of wealth by taxing the billionaires. Problem solved without the need to demonise poor pensioners and portray them as some sort of greedy gits. Next problem please

Think they should double the tax on the jocks,max? What do you think

It would be better if we retained the wealth we create instead of sending it all to London and receiving a pitiful allowance in return.

You’ve got Mel Gibson and Robert the Bruce to blame for that Max

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:18 pm Sounds a bit like the theory behind Brexit.

Fancy starting this thread LSN Having a go at the pensioners, we are going to have to meet up as soon as I get off this Caribbean island and have a sort out

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:45 am

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:05 am If the general public were ever to be properly educated into how the state pension works, I suspect attitudes towards immigration and supporting women to have shed loads of children would soften considerably.

So why arent they educated?

Why would those in power want people to be educated?

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:05 pm Everyone of working age should take their own private pension planning seriously, and on the assumption that they will not qualify for any state pension by the time they reach whatever the nominal retirement age is in the future.

But if you think things are bad in the UK, the unfunded future state pension liabilities in places like Germany, Italy, Spain etc are terrifying. There's a serious crunch coming.

I'm planning to avoid this by continuing to work until I am physically unable to, at which point some combination of the NHS/my family/Dignitas will have to fill the gap left by the absence of a comfortable retirement.

What would Real Brexit look like?

OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:49 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:05 pm Everyone of working age should take their own private pension planning seriously, and on the assumption that they will not qualify for any state pension by the time they reach whatever the nominal retirement age is in the future.

But if you think things are bad in the UK, the unfunded future state pension liabilities in places like Germany, Italy, Spain etc are terrifying. There's a serious crunch coming.

I'm planning to avoid this by continuing to work until I am physically unable to, at which point some combination of the NHS/my family/Dignitas will have to fill the gap left by the absence of a comfortable retirement.

It is interesting how the debate on assisted dying is suddenly becoming more mainstream.

That's just the age of your social circle

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:07 pm

redintheface wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:03 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 9:40 am
Also, the triple lock needs to go- just imagine anyone else getting a pay deal on the same terms!

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 96135.html

The train drivers are doing something worthwhile though and paying for todays pensioners.

As were todays pensioners 10/20 years ago.

The problem is that work should pay properly and for many, it no longer does.
I'm old enough to remember when a working man would be able to raise a family, buy a little house, have a family holiday from time to time and run a small car. He would also be able to afford pension provision, insurances and assurances to ensure a viable old age. True enough, he might not have had central heating, fridge, washing machine, colour telly, smart phone etc. 'Guess his life was hard by our standards but at least he felt secure and could stand tall with his peers.
'Different now. The pretty toys your wages can buy you are as crumbs from the table if you have no roof above your head. 'Dunno who caused these changes nor for what benefit. Triple Lock? The reward for a life time of work should not need special protection. Winter fuel payments? They are an insult to the needy. For the love of God... TAX ME!

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:39 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:09 am

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:30 am

Well you’ve started now LSN haven’t we just a couple of points to pick up on. I worked for 48 years paid in my NI for all that time. People can only claim full pension for working 35 max. So the extra 13 years I paid in I got nothing back unlike these immigrants that come over and expect a hand out. I’ve claimed nothing off the state in those 48 years except having some major surgery off the NHS which I was very grateful for. Being a pensioner like many others I don’t get the chance to earn extra money like youngsters do by doing overtime if available. I could get another job I hear you say but why should I, I’ve lived by the rules all my life contributing to this country unlike others that bend the rules. Don’t know if you work LSN ?and I’m presuming you’re fairly young so when you look back at this post in your 70’s I’m willing to bet you may and others on here will realise what a load of old bollocks this post is. So with respect LSN (who I have respect for) you can stick this post right up your backside where it belongs

So how much tax roughly did you pay each year? Others in this thread have covered how your contriubtions dont cover the pension but I'd like to do the maths anyway.

In all seriousness I’m not quite sure, the pension thing imo is a lucky dip. As for tax I paid in,it was at the rate government set at the time . I was on PAYE the top you get for is around £890 per month as it stands. However some of my mates get a few hundred more and I don’t know why? Perhaps different governments change the rules? What people are not taking into account is that the more state pension you get the more they tax your private one. So that £400 there quoting will probably work out at about £250. It’s like in life LSN some get more than others depending on circumstances in life mate.

I don't hear people on this forum complaining about the very good pensions given to public sector workers, civil servants etc ?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/g ... 4cfa&ei=16

Gold-plated public sector pensions cost every household £173,000.

The cost of Britain’s gold-plated public sector pensions has hit £173,000 for every household, analysis reveals.
The value of pensions already guranteed to workers including doctors, soldiers, civil servants and teachers has reached close to £5 trillion, projections suggest. This leaves every household with a bill of £173,000 to fulfil promises made during decades of generous final salary schemes.
One young people’s charity said the “eye watering” figures could no longer be brushed under the carpet, while a former pensions minister said politicians needed to be honest about the true cost of the “most generous pensions in the land”.
It comes as contributions from public sector employers and employees continued to fall billions of pounds short of what is already being paid out to retirees, with a £2.4bn bill picked up by the taxpayer this year alone.
Public sector pensions are “defined benefit” schemes, meaning they pay workers a proportion of their salary for life when they retire.
They also increase annually with inflation and are enjoyed by more than three quarters of public sector employees, compared to just 7pc of private sector workers. The UK’s total bill for these pensions hit £2.6 trillion earlier this year, larger than the size of the economy, according to official figures.
However, when adding factors like inflation and wage growth, economist Neil Record estimates the true figure is £4.9 trillion, leaving a £173,000 bill for each of the UK’s 28.4 million households.

Mr Record said the system was “unsustainable and needs urgent reform”.

He said: “The Government has for years hidden from view its largest debt – what it owes to public sector pensioners. It will have to pay the enormous sum of around £4.9 trillion over the next 80 years to fulfil all its legally enforceable pension promises even if it closes its pension schemes today.
“This year it is going to pay over £54bn to its own ex-employees, and all of the cost will come from today’s and tomorrow’s taxpayers because unlike in the private sector, previous contributions were spent instead of being invested to fund future pensions.”
Former pensions minister Baroness Ros Altmann said public sector workers deserved good pensions, but “it seems not everyone realises how valuable they are or what the true cost is for future taxpayers”.

Orientnil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:18 pm The problem is that work should pay properly and for many, it no longer does.
I'm old enough to remember when a working man would be able to raise a family, buy a little house, have a family holiday from time to time and run a small car. He would also be able to afford pension provision, insurances and assurances to ensure a viable old age. True enough, he might not have had central heating, fridge, washing machine, colour telly, smart phone etc. 'Guess his life was hard by our standards but at least he felt secure and could stand tall with his peers.
'Different now. The pretty toys your wages can buy you are as crumbs from the table if you have no roof above your head. 'Dunno who caused these changes nor for what benefit. Triple Lock? The reward for a life time of work should not need special protection. Winter fuel payments? They are an insult to the needy. For the love of God... TAX ME!

The oldies wouldn't have had a roof over their heads either if they were not prepared to make sacrifices.. Something the younger folk today are not prepared to do. Different world, different ball game.

Which oldies are we talking about?

The post war boomers have had things better than any generation ever. (Other than missing out on avocados, smashed or otherwise, obviously).

F*ck off, Reeves!

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:32 pm Which oldies are we talking about?

The post war boomers have had things better than any generation ever. (Other than missing out on avocados, smashed or otherwise, obviously).

Stick to the actual point that's been mentioned..

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 11:28 am

Orientnil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:18 pm The problem is that work should pay properly and for many, it no longer does.
I'm old enough to remember when a working man would be able to raise a family, buy a little house, have a family holiday from time to time and run a small car. He would also be able to afford pension provision, insurances and assurances to ensure a viable old age. True enough, he might not have had central heating, fridge, washing machine, colour telly, smart phone etc. 'Guess his life was hard by our standards but at least he felt secure and could stand tall with his peers.
'Different now. The pretty toys your wages can buy you are as crumbs from the table if you have no roof above your head. 'Dunno who caused these changes nor for what benefit. Triple Lock? The reward for a life time of work should not need special protection. Winter fuel payments? They are an insult to the needy. For the love of God... TAX ME!

The oldies wouldn't have had a roof over their heads either if they were not prepared to make sacrifices.. Something the younger folk today are not prepared to do. Different world, different ball game.

I’m an oldie and I don’t remember too many sacrifices I made during my working life. So much old bollox about oldies being tougher - living without mod-cons etc.
If you don’t know about future mod-cons then you can’t really miss them can you.
We’re in a state of constant change and need to recognise that. Looking back with rose-tinted glasses to a time that never really existed is just total and utter madness. But it helps some to project the idea that we used to live in a better society than we do now. From there it’s simple to suggest what may have been the cause of this deterioration in Society - today’s current fashionable target is immigration/foreigners.
Still, I suppose it takes the heat off the super-rich who could help rebuild a fairer society if they wanted to by paying appropriate taxes.

Correct - the two things that are unique about the current generation of pensioners are:

• they are wealthier in relative terms than any other previous generation of pensioners

• there are more of them relative to the rest of the population than in any time in recorded history

Put these things together and you can see how things might be a little unbalanced.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 11:28 am

Orientnil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:18 pm The problem is that work should pay properly and for many, it no longer does.
I'm old enough to remember when a working man would be able to raise a family, buy a little house, have a family holiday from time to time and run a small car. He would also be able to afford pension provision, insurances and assurances to ensure a viable old age. True enough, he might not have had central heating, fridge, washing machine, colour telly, smart phone etc. 'Guess his life was hard by our standards but at least he felt secure and could stand tall with his peers.
'Different now. The pretty toys your wages can buy you are as crumbs from the table if you have no roof above your head. 'Dunno who caused these changes nor for what benefit. Triple Lock? The reward for a life time of work should not need special protection. Winter fuel payments? They are an insult to the needy. For the love of God... TAX ME!

The oldies wouldn't have had a roof over their heads either if they were not prepared to make sacrifices.. Something the younger folk today are not prepared to do. Different world, different ball game.

Housing was cheap up until the 80s. It is now unaffordable. Those who missed the gold rush are either

- in sh*t expensive rented accommodation largely at the whim of an amateur landlord class who are doubling down on their luck of being able to afford to buy a house at a very specific point in history or

- paying enormous mortgages on tiny properties and are at the whim of interest rates that have gone up by 5% in the space of a couple of years. They have made ridiculous sacrifices to enter the property market because it was sold to them as oldies as 'the right thing to do' and have been shafted as a result.

The cost of housing relative to wages is an absolute disaster. Older generations have basically gotten out of the mortgage market in time to see them sit on hefty assets debt free, assets which appreciate in value because of the above two factors - a mess of a rental system encouraging multiple homeownership, and inflated assets values because of the pouring in of once temporarily cheap credit.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:24 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 11:28 am

Orientnil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:18 pm The problem is that work should pay properly and for many, it no longer does.
I'm old enough to remember when a working man would be able to raise a family, buy a little house, have a family holiday from time to time and run a small car. He would also be able to afford pension provision, insurances and assurances to ensure a viable old age. True enough, he might not have had central heating, fridge, washing machine, colour telly, smart phone etc. 'Guess his life was hard by our standards but at least he felt secure and could stand tall with his peers.
'Different now. The pretty toys your wages can buy you are as crumbs from the table if you have no roof above your head. 'Dunno who caused these changes nor for what benefit. Triple Lock? The reward for a life time of work should not need special protection. Winter fuel payments? They are an insult to the needy. For the love of God... TAX ME!

The oldies wouldn't have had a roof over their heads either if they were not prepared to make sacrifices.. Something the younger folk today are not prepared to do. Different world, different ball game.

Housing was cheap up until the 80s. It is now unaffordable. Those who missed the gold rush are either

- in sh*t expensive rented accommodation largely at the whim of an amateur landlord class who are doubling down on their luck of being able to afford to buy a house at a very specific point in history or

- paying enormous mortgages on tiny properties and are at the whim of interest rates that have gone up by 5% in the space of a couple of years. They have made ridiculous sacrifices to enter the property market because it was sold to them as oldies as 'the right thing to do' and have been shafted as a result.

The cost of housing relative to wages is an absolute disaster. Older generations have basically gotten out of the mortgage market in time to see them sit on hefty assets debt free, assets which appreciate in value because of the above two factors - a mess of a rental system encouraging multiple homeownership, and inflated assets values because of the pouring in of once temporarily cheap credit.

It's all Thatchers fault.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 1:16 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 11:28 am

Orientnil wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:18 pm The problem is that work should pay properly and for many, it no longer does.
I'm old enough to remember when a working man would be able to raise a family, buy a little house, have a family holiday from time to time and run a small car. He would also be able to afford pension provision, insurances and assurances to ensure a viable old age. True enough, he might not have had central heating, fridge, washing machine, colour telly, smart phone etc. 'Guess his life was hard by our standards but at least he felt secure and could stand tall with his peers.
'Different now. The pretty toys your wages can buy you are as crumbs from the table if you have no roof above your head. 'Dunno who caused these changes nor for what benefit. Triple Lock? The reward for a life time of work should not need special protection. Winter fuel payments? They are an insult to the needy. For the love of God... TAX ME!

The oldies wouldn't have had a roof over their heads either if they were not prepared to make sacrifices.. Something the younger folk today are not prepared to do. Different world, different ball game.

I’m an oldie and I don’t remember too many sacrifices I made during my working life. So much old bollox about oldies being tougher - living without mod-cons etc.
If you don’t know about future mod-cons then you can’t really miss them can you.
We’re in a state of constant change and need to recognise that. Looking back with rose-tinted glasses to a time that never really existed is just total and utter madness. But it helps some to project the idea that we used to live in a better society than we do now. From there it’s simple to suggest what may have been the cause of this deterioration in Society - today’s current fashionable target is immigration/foreigners.
Still, I suppose it takes the heat off the super-rich who could help rebuild a fairer society if they wanted to by paying appropriate taxes.

So you can't remember sacrifices made by young people in, say, the sixties. Oh well, maybe your memory is going. Luckily, at the moment anyway, mine is still.holding up.
So typical of you, by the way, to bring immigration and foreigners into it.

“It's all Thatchers fault.”

I blame VAR.

Just think, if all the self-employed people paid the correct amount of taxes, we wouldn't have these problems.

I made no sacrifices in the 60's that I can recall. My mother who was a slightly religious sort, used to send me to Sunday school with thruppence for the collection plate. What a mug. I never went near the place and bought a packet of fruit spangles instead

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 7:39 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 1:16 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2024 11:28 am
The oldies wouldn't have had a roof over their heads either if they were not prepared to make sacrifices.. Something the younger folk today are not prepared to do. Different world, different ball game.

I’m an oldie and I don’t remember too many sacrifices I made during my working life. So much old bollox about oldies being tougher - living without mod-cons etc.
If you don’t know about future mod-cons then you can’t really miss them can you.
We’re in a state of constant change and need to recognise that. Looking back with rose-tinted glasses to a time that never really existed is just total and utter madness. But it helps some to project the idea that we used to live in a better society than we do now. From there it’s simple to suggest what may have been the cause of this deterioration in Society - today’s current fashionable target is immigration/foreigners.
Still, I suppose it takes the heat off the super-rich who could help rebuild a fairer society if they wanted to by paying appropriate taxes.

So you can't remember sacrifices made by young people in, say, the sixties. Oh well, maybe your memory is going. Luckily, at the moment anyway, mine is still.holding up.
So typical of you, by the way, to bring immigration and foreigners into it.

Go on then. Describe the sacrifices made in the sixties.

Would it make the slightest difference to you and your views if I did.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:58 am Would it make the slightest difference to you and your views if I did.

Yes. Possibly. Depends on what you say really doesn't it.