Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Pub league team humped by a proper football team. Viva Espana

Not too far from the truth…

Not many England players had positive games..that Palmer, though. Wow.

True, the ref didn't add a second onto the 4 mins extra despite a lot of wasted time. But Spain were far better than us. The pundits kept saying that we couldn't hold onto the ball. Also true, but that's because Spain didn't allow us any room to work the ball..

If / when it comes out Kane wasn't fit did Southgate bottle it by playing him tonight? He couldn't get near anything in the penalty area let alone support the likes of Bellingham trying to get out. A bit like the Champions League final a few years back when he kept an in form Moura out the side.

gshaw wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 11:22 pm If / when it comes out Kane wasn't fit did Southgate bottle it by playing him tonight? He couldn't get near anything in the penalty area let alone support the likes of Bellingham trying to get out. A bit like the Champions League final a few years back when he kept an in form Moura out the side.

Yes I too BLAME Southgate and Kane. Kane's International career was over before a ball was kicked in this tournament.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:00 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:59 pm Times up, Southgate.

To be fair to Southgate he's got a decent record . He's been OK as the England Manager .

Ok is not good enough when we had players that match Spain. The tactics and selection were wrong. The tactics and play does not suit the way Kane plays..Watkins and Palmer should have been in the starting line up. Southgate got it wrong. When we scored we had them on the rack for a short time. Then we went back to playing deep and allowed them to come onto us just like in most of the games we played. You could see they were going to score again. Would Hurgen Klopps team play like that, We have players that are world class when playing for their clubs but don’t play the same for England. Southgate tactics are old hat. He must go now.

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:14 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:06 pm As much as I’ve defended Southgate I think he could be questioned after we scored. We obviously threw on Palmer and went more attacking but it was clear we were lacking in midfield, shaw was f*cked and Walker was covering two positions. We were opened up for the goal and Walker was packing going to block the cross

I really don’t understand the mind set, we equalised and then sat back and defended after having them on the ropes however think the best team won. You could have landed a plane in midfield we gave them so much room We may of stood a chance if Kane and Foden hadn’t been playing?

Kane was playing like it was walking football, strolled around and never put any pressure on their defenders when they had the ball. So different to Spain, when our Defenders or goalkeeper had the ball, their forwards were quickly closing down our defenders. We conceded the midfield too much, sat too deep and agree that Kane and Foden should have both come off a lot quicker than they did. Spain were playing old fashioned football in that they used 2 fast wingers and kept the pressure on by putting a lot of crosses into the box. They had so many corners compared to the few we had. Many times Saka got into positions where he could have attempted to cross, instead kept passing it back to the midfield who then passed it sideways or backwards. Same old Southgate ''handbrake'' England, we scored a goal then dropped back and defended. We were unlucky in the dying minutes having 2 shots blocked on the line. Lastly why was the outstanding Palmer brought on so late, he should have been a starter and Kane looked slow and tired out with no energy in his play. All in all, Spain played with fire in their belly and England didn't !

moonwalk19 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 11:45 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:00 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:59 pm Times up, Southgate.

To be fair to Southgate he's got a decent record . He's been OK as the England Manager .

Ok is not good enough when we had players that match Spain. The tactics and selection were wrong. The tactics and play does not suit the way Kane plays..Watkins and Palmer should have been in the starting line up. Southgate got it wrong. When we scored we had them on the rack for a short time. Then we went back to playing deep and allowed them to come onto us just like in most of the games we played. You could see they were going to score again. Would Hurgen Klopps team play like that, We have players that are world class when playing for their clubs but don’t play the same for England. Southgate tactics are old hat. He must go now.

My thoughts exactly. We limped our way into the final and Southgate as usual had the handbrake on for much of the time. Agree that Watkins and Palmer should have been in the starting line up, all in all, no guts, no glory !

I think Peter Kitchens fb post sums it up very well:

It’s not coming home because we weren’t brave enough. We have the players to have won this but a Manager whose mindset is cautious, safe & negative & shows in his team selection. His system does not get the best out of his players & Kane needed more offensive support . We’re sitting back far too deep with Rice playing in amongst the back players most of the time. We surrendered the initiative & allowed Spain to boss the game & then only play when we’re chasing the game. Palmer should have started & would have caused Spain problems from the start, caused them problems & helped support Kane. His substitutions are also too late with Toney coming on with 2 mins left.

PKM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:05 am I think Peter Kitchens fb post sums it up very well:

It’s not coming home because we weren’t brave enough. We have the players to have won this but a Manager whose mindset is cautious, safe & negative & shows in his team selection. His system does not get the best out of his players & Kane needed more offensive support . We’re sitting back far too deep with Rice playing in amongst the back players most of the time. We surrendered the initiative & allowed Spain to boss the game & then only play when we’re chasing the game. Palmer should have started & would have caused Spain problems from the start, caused them problems & helped support Kane. His substitutions are also too late with Toney coming on with 2 mins left.

Controversial take Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.

On the hand ful of occasions we went for it in both the semi and final, we were cut apart. Spain are a class above us. Southgate’s boring tactics kept us in the game.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:17 am

PKM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:05 am I think Peter Kitchens fb post sums it up very well:

It’s not coming home because we weren’t brave enough. We have the players to have won this but a Manager whose mindset is cautious, safe & negative & shows in his team selection. His system does not get the best out of his players & Kane needed more offensive support . We’re sitting back far too deep with Rice playing in amongst the back players most of the time. We surrendered the initiative & allowed Spain to boss the game & then only play when we’re chasing the game. Palmer should have started & would have caused Spain problems from the start, caused them problems & helped support Kane. His substitutions are also too late with Toney coming on with 2 mins left.

Controversial take Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.

On the hand ful of occasions we went for it in both the semi and final, we were cut apart. Spain are a class above us. Southgate’s boring tactics kept us in the game.

There's been lots of criticism from pundits and ex-players who have never played in or managed an England team to an international tournament final. Southgate's tactics kept us in the game, meant we weren't embarrassed, and kept us with a chance.

Walker sh*t the bed for both goals by getting drawn into the middle, but guess that's a product of how hard it was to deal with Spain's wingers, they kept getting into those dangerous positions and forcing errors. We were outplayed in the second half, the first goal was a particularly rubbish bit of defending - it was more or less straight from kick off.

Think best for both parties if Southgate calls it a day. He seems to have hit his ceiling (which to be fair is higher than any other England manager of the last 50 odd years) and gets non stop pelters all the time, which must be miserable. Not that much you can criticise him for last night, Spain are an unbelievable team. Never fails to amaze me how deep that culture of being comfortable on the ball runs, they are impossible to get the ball off of at times. Last night reminded me of those champions League finals between Barcelona and man u, where a clearly very good team were played off the park by a side who seemed to play a different sport.

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:34 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:17 am

PKM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:05 am I think Peter Kitchens fb post sums it up very well:

It’s not coming home because we weren’t brave enough. We have the players to have won this but a Manager whose mindset is cautious, safe & negative & shows in his team selection. His system does not get the best out of his players & Kane needed more offensive support . We’re sitting back far too deep with Rice playing in amongst the back players most of the time. We surrendered the initiative & allowed Spain to boss the game & then only play when we’re chasing the game. Palmer should have started & would have caused Spain problems from the start, caused them problems & helped support Kane. His substitutions are also too late with Toney coming on with 2 mins left.

Controversial take Peter is clearly stuck in the 1970s.

On the hand ful of occasions we went for it in both the semi and final, we were cut apart. Spain are a class above us. Southgate’s boring tactics kept us in the game.

There's been lots of criticism from pundits and ex-players who have never played in or managed an England team to an international tournament final. Southgate's tactics kept us in the game, meant we weren't embarrassed, and kept us with a chance.

There's no way to know that. I don't think it's a case of being too negative or too positive, but more a case of setting up the team to have the best chance of winning. Kane didn't work at all in way we played, so was like playing with 10 men. Up until the last 2 games we were playing with 9 men as Bell and Foden covered almost identical locations on the pitch. Southgate's tactics may or not have been sound, but he chose to put square pegs in round holes for most of the tournament (TAA in mid, Tripp at left back, Kane up front, Bell and Foden). If those are the players he wanted to play (which clearly they were) he should have set the team up to give them a chance to play well. That was his major failing in this tournament. I would argue that our squad is as good as Spains, and they did as well as they could with the parameters that southgate set for them.

Southgates negative, boring tactics played at a snails pace cost England the win.
It has been clear for a long time that his tactics will never win a major tournament and that is not good enough.He should do the honourable thing and resign or rightly be replaced, nobody wants a loser in charge of our national team.

I think last night really showed up the difference between a team that had a very clear sense of how they wanted to play, where their team mates would be in possession, what sorts of runs to make and when, and a team that has essentially been made up on the fly. That's where the criticism of our early performances seems legitimate - they aren't just about winning and entertaining, but getting into a rhythm that can carry you in the harder games.

Switching formation again last night arguably was the cause of both Spain goals, as Walker didn't seem to know what his role was. In a 3-5-2, it's to come in, in a 4-3-3, it's to hold wide.

But again, Spain having better midfielders and being more comfortable on the ball are the biggest factors behind why we looked so far below their level.

Southgate has blinkers on when it comes to Kane, sholdn't have started him.
Toney would have been a better bet, needed an outlet and someone to hold the ball when we got it back.
Too many times Spain just came back at us and any football fan knows how that ends.
Southgate has sorted out the infrastructure so credit to him for that, but a poor tactician.
We have some very good young players, Saka has really impressed me this tournament, consistently good.
Now need a coach/manager who can inspire and bring these younger players on with a modern approach.
Old stagers need to be waved goodbye, one touch in the box over two finals from Kane is an awful stat.
One other thing that I felt was wrong, experimentation shouldn't be worked on at a tournament.
That needs to be sorted beforehand so we have a reasonably settled team who know each other well and the game plan.
A new captain who can give encouragement on the pitch would help too, never see any of that now.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:23 am

One swallow does not make a summer !

I very rarely if ever watch top flight football and this was the first game in the euros I have watched. I thought it was dreadful. Since when did football become the kicking equivalent of basketball. One team has the ball for 3 minutes. Then the other team. Passing it around going absolutely nowhere. Any tackle is a foul. Not a shot on goal in the first half? I know I am supposed to be impressed and hoover will be on telling me I am stuck in the 1970’s but I can’t wait for orients first game and the first time someone lumps it forward and 3 players all fall over trying to control it.

Anyone who can get a team with Jordan f*cking Pickford in goal to successive finals is doing something right.

Spain have far superior players to us all over the pitch. That’s why we lost.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:33 pm Pub league team humped by a proper football team. Viva Espana

Spain have been the best team in this tournament from the beginning so I've got no complaints . Spain deserve it having beaten teams like Italy, Germany , France and England . I have go take my hat off to them and say " Congratulations Spain "

Sid Bishop wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:51 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:23 am

One swallow does not make a summer !

Was Spain playing their under 18 team .

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 am Anyone who can get a team with Jordan f*cking Pickford in goal to successive finals is doing something right.

Spain have far superior players to us all over the pitch. That’s why we lost.

I respectfully disagree, our wingers are as good as yamal and williams, our attacking mids as good as olmo, out centre forwards as morata, our defence as good as theirs. The only better player they have is Rodri and the keeper, but Rodri went off at half time, and the keepers were largely irrelevant.