Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:21 am**

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:01 am
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:02 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:29 pm Quarters
Final
Semis

Show the man some respect.
Won nothing in 11 years of trying. No problem with losing to teams with better players, but I don't think one Icelandic player gets in the England team. When it isn't going right just seems to change players not formations. Its not as if we haven't seen these inept displays before. I genuinely believe Richie would do a better job, would love to see what he could do with the talent Southgate has at his disposal.
He’s only been England manager for about 8 years

Won nothing as the U21 Manager in the 3 years before becoming the Seniors manager.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:45 pm**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:31 am
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:02 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:29 pm Quarters
Final
Semis

Show the man some respect.
Won nothing in 11 years of trying. No problem with losing to teams with better players, but I don't think one Icelandic player gets in the England team. When it isn't going right just seems to change players not formations. Its not as if we haven't seen these inept displays before. I genuinely believe Richie would do a better job, would love to see what he could do with the talent Southgate has at his disposal.
Richie is not a better manager than Southgate

Well I accept that Richie probably won't get the England job any time soon, but as League managers Richie has the higher points per match return.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm**

The facts are simply these, we could and should have dominated european if not world football for the last 4/5 years this is our time. There’s no super stars or teams like Messi or Ronaldo or Brazil or Germany. Clubs are buying English players for once. As an international manager you can’t buy players you have what your given and use your tactical knowledge and man management skills neither of which Southgate possess imo.As an international national manager your judged by the trophy’s you win and not promotion or players bought. Southgate couldn’t organise a display in Tesco or Sainsbury’s let alone win a trophy. He had his chance the last euro final and successfuly grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. He will not and is not capable of winning anything he’s just an FA yes man and no more unfortunately for us.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:14 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm The facts are simply these

...goes on to offer opinions, rather than facts.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:40 pm**

Apart from the obvious (to me):apart from Laurie C and Harry, are there any other English International players that have Orient links??

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:51 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:14 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm The facts are simply these
...goes on to offer opinions, rather than facts.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:02 pm**

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:40 pm Apart from the obvious (to me):apart from Laurie C and Harry, are there any other English International players that have Orient links??

Shilton
Hodge
Wilkins
Martin (Alvin, not John)

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:03 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:51 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:14 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm The facts are simply these
...goes on to offer opinions, rather than facts.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:19 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:51 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:14 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm The facts are simply these
...goes on to offer opinions, rather than facts.
The fact he’s won bugger all isn’t a fact? Ok

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:31 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm The facts are simply these, we could and should have dominated european if not world football for the last 4/5 years this is our time. There’s no super stars or teams like Messi or Ronaldo or Brazil or Germany. Clubs are buying English players for once. As an international manager you can’t buy players you have what your given and use your tactical knowledge and man management skills neither of which Southgate possess imo.As an international national manager your judged by the trophy’s you win and not promotion or players bought. Southgate couldn’t organise a display in Tesco or Sainsbury’s let alone win a trophy. He had his chance the last euro final and successfuly grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. He will not and is not capable of winning anything he’s just an FA yes man and no more unfortunately for us.

Quote...'He had his chance the last euro final and successfuly grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory.''

In that final, England went 1-0 up very early and had Italy reeling, then after scoring that early goal, defensive mindset crept in and they did not press home their advantage, started to play more defensively, Italy got their confidence up, got into the game more and England ended up losing via a penalty shoot out !

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:01 pm**

Southgate is an excellent man manager, and the players want to play for him and England without doubt. That was not always the case in the past.

He has changed the image of the team (and it's followers) too and deserves credit for that.

Perhaps he can be found wanting tactically. In my lifetime, England have never had a "world class" manager- not really. Not an Ancelloti (say). It would be interesting to see what would happen if we did.

However we over-rate our players. Foden (for example) - did nothing last night, and has done very very little in an England shirt. If he was as good as he is purported to be, he would be able to put teams like Iceland to the sword. He runs around a lot.

If our players are That good, then 1 or 2 of them would have run that game last night. None of them did.

Southgate has done well overall. He's not perfect. He's not top-drawer. He's done a good job. There have been a few horror-shows (like last night) but overall he's done well.

To those that continually lambast him, I always ask who would do a better job (that is realistic and available). That never gets answered.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:11 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:26 pm The facts are simply these, we could and should have dominated european if not world football for the last 4/5 years this is our time. There’s no super stars or teams like Messi or Ronaldo or Brazil or Germany. Clubs are buying English players for once. As an international manager you can’t buy players you have what your given and use your tactical knowledge and man management skills neither of which Southgate possess imo.As an international national manager your judged by the trophy’s you win and not promotion or players bought. Southgate couldn’t organise a display in Tesco or Sainsbury’s let alone win a trophy. He had his chance the last euro final and successfuly grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. He will not and is not capable of winning anything he’s just an FA yes man and no more unfortunately for us.

Those are opinions, not facts.

Fact.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:12 pm**

Jürgen Klopp

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:13 pm**

What the fact we have won nothing isn’t a fact, your more stupid than I thought

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:13 pm**

There’s definitely been no superstars like Messi in the last 4-5 years.
Aside from Messi of course, who is a bit like Messi, I suppose.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:24 pm**

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:01 pm Southgate is an excellent man manager, and the players want to play for him and England without doubt. That was not always the case in the past.

He has changed the image of the team (and it's followers) too and deserves credit for that.

Perhaps he can be found wanting tactically. In my lifetime, England have never had a "world class" manager- not really. Not an Ancelloti (say). It would be interesting to see what would happen if we did.

However we over-rate our players. Foden (for example) - did nothing last night, and has done very very little in an England shirt. If he was as good as he is purported to be, he would be able to put teams like Iceland to the sword. He runs around a lot.

If our players are That good, then 1 or 2 of them would have run that game last night. None of them did.

Southgate has done well overall. He's not perfect. He's not top-drawer. He's done a good job. There have been a few horror-shows (like last night) but overall he's done well.

To those that continually lambast him, I always ask who would do a better job (that is realistic and available). That never gets answered.

This summarises the whole debate. One school of thought is that the players are over rated and that Southgate does his best. Others believe the players are great and Southgate is hopeless. The reality as suggested is somewhere in between. Whatever, the players are certainly good enough to beat the likes of Iceland comfortably. When then then play as ineptly as they did, its difficult for me not to lay the blame with Southgate. Who is better will never get answered if we leave Southgate in place for another 8 years. We need to appoint a manager such as a Kieran McKenna who has been successful getting players to play to their maximum, not a Southgate who did nothing as a league manager to warrant the England job, and then fell into it via the U21s.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:34 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:13 pm What the fact we have won nothing isn’t a fact, your more stupid than I thought

It's "You're", not "your" by the way.

You're very quick to insults.
This reflects badly on you. You have no idea of my intelligence quotient. You must be quite an angry person. I have empathy for you around that.

I was simply pointing out that your statement :
"
The facts are simply these, we could and should have dominated european if not world football for the last 4/5 years this is our time.
"
-----------------
This is not a fact, it's an opinion. If you are struggling around that further, speak to someone as clever as you.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:43 pm**

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:24 pm
Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:01 pm Southgate is an excellent man manager, and the players want to play for him and England without doubt. That was not always the case in the past.

He has changed the image of the team (and it's followers) too and deserves credit for that.

Perhaps he can be found wanting tactically. In my lifetime, England have never had a "world class" manager- not really. Not an Ancelloti (say). It would be interesting to see what would happen if we did.

However we over-rate our players. Foden (for example) - did nothing last night, and has done very very little in an England shirt. If he was as good as he is purported to be, he would be able to put teams like Iceland to the sword. He runs around a lot.

If our players are That good, then 1 or 2 of them would have run that game last night. None of them did.

Southgate has done well overall. He's not perfect. He's not top-drawer. He's done a good job. There have been a few horror-shows (like last night) but overall he's done well.

To those that continually lambast him, I always ask who would do a better job (that is realistic and available). That never gets answered.
This summarises the whole debate. One school of thought is that the players are over rated and that Southgate does his best. Others believe the players are great and Southgate is hopeless. The reality as suggested is somewhere in between. Whatever, the players are certainly good enough to beat the likes of Iceland comfortably. When then then play as ineptly as they did, its difficult for me not to lay the blame with Southgate. Who is better will never get answered if we leave Southgate in place for another 8 years. We need to appoint a manager such as a Kieran McKenna who has been successful getting players to play to their maximum, not a Southgate who did nothing as a league manager to warrant the England job, and then fell into it via the U21s.

Excellent points. The truth is as so often - somewhere in the middle and not at the extremes.

Whilst I'd always fight Southgate's corner "to some extent"- he's done a lot of good things without a doubt, and (clearly) the players like playing for him, but it's starting to 'feel' like maybe he's gone as far as he can. He would be smart enough to recognise that himself for sure also I imagine.

He was fortunate in a way to get the England job. Many castigate him a "yes man" (whilst having no idea of the inner workings of the FA whatsoever) but you do get the feeling that he's "good PR".

Southgate cannot win - Picks his favourites- get's slaughtered. Drops Grealish - get's slaughtered.

Even if we won the Euros And the next World Cup, many would find a way to whine and nitpick about how it wasn't good enough. Being the England manager is a truly awful job in some ways- you are literally the national punchbag.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:48 pm**

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:34 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:13 pm What the fact we have won nothing isn’t a fact, your more stupid than I thought
It's "You're", not "your" by the way. Basic English.

You're very quick to insults.
This reflects badly on you. You have no idea of my intelligence quotient. You must be quite an angry person. I have empathy for you around that.

I was simply pointing out that your statement :
"
The facts are simply these, we could and should have dominated european if not world football for the last 4/5 years this is our time.
"
-----------------
This is not a fact, it's an opinion. If you are struggling around that further, speak to someone as clever as you.

Thank you for being so pedantic however your are correct in saying it’s my opinion that England won’t win anything with Southgate in charge but absolute fact we haven’t won anything within with him being the manager, so I respectfully suggest you speak to someone who as far better knowledge of football than you and that my friend is basic football knowledge. No not angry just sitting here whale watching in Alaska.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:35 pm**

Some interesting posts but isn't it just time we all recognise and accept England are just serial losers.

Posted: **Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:45 pm**

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:35 pm Some interesting posts but isn't it just time we all recognise and accept England are just serial lovers.

How very dare you, you naughty Scotsman

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:58 am**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:02 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:40 pm Apart from the obvious (to me):apart from Laurie C and Harry, are there any other English International players that have Orient links??
Shilton
Hodge
Wilkins
Martin (Alvin, not John)

Yes, thanks.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2024 6:17 am**

He’s had very good attackers, very average midfield, a couple of world class defenders but an average unit and average at best goalkeepers.

He’s doing exactly how well he should be doing. The 2020 Euros squad is not as good as you think it was.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:40 am**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:12 pm Jürgen Klopp

That is a good option, but I think he much prefers the day to day involvement of being a top clubs manager, they probably pay a lot more as well !
Thing is, would seem to me that same point would rule out many top football managers. The times of the England manager being one of the most sought after job's in football are long gone. Ohh for another England manager on the same level as Terry Venables !

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:00 am**

But Southgate has objectively gotten better results than any England manager not called Ramsey. Bobby Robson is always held up as one of the greats but had a record that Southgate would have gotten pasted for. Venables did one tournament which we had home advantage in and didn't a win a knock out game in.

We haven't been a top tier international team for over half a century, Southgate has actually managed to oversee us getting into that bracket consistently.

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