Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:05 am
Really? Ok I must apologise. What did he win?Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:01 amThat is as a manager.
Independent Leyton Orient Forum
The Unofficial and Independent Leyton Orient Message Board
https://lofcforum.com/forum1/phpBB3/
Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Page 2 of 3
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:06 am
I'm not, but then I'm assuming you're also not suggesting he was top class and Dalgleish identified some previously untapped genius based on one good season in the second tier?DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:04 amCome on Speedie was ordinary at best. You’re not suggesting he was top class surely?Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:01 amSpeedie had played almost 250 Division 1 matches for Chelsea and Coventry as well as scoring 6 in 12 for Liverpool before he went to Blackburn - for just the one season in Division 2.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 am Haha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:07 am
Wycombe Wanderers
Football League Third Division play-offs: 1994[23]
Football Conference: 1992–93[97]
FA Trophy: 1990–91, 1992–93[23]
Leicester City
Football League First Division play-offs: 1996[23]
Football League Cup: 1996–97, 1999–2000[23]
Celtic
Scottish Premier League: 2000–01, 2001–02, 2003–04[23]
Scottish Cup: 2000–01, 2003–04, 2004–05[23]
Scottish League Cup: 2000–01[23]
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:07 am
These were all established Premier League players, right? Amazing.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 amHaha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:10 am
No you’re right I am not. I am suggesting he bought well. That’s all. You don’t win the EPL by fluke. You don’t keep a job if you’re rubbish. I am not a huge fan but I think it’s harsh to say he was a bad manager.Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:06 amI'm not, but then I'm assuming you're also not suggesting he was top class and Dalgleish identified some previously untapped genius based on one good season in the second tier?DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:04 amCome on Speedie was ordinary at best. You’re not suggesting he was top class surely?Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:01 am
Speedie had played almost 250 Division 1 matches for Chelsea and Coventry as well as scoring 6 in 12 for Liverpool before he went to Blackburn - for just the one season in Division 2.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:13 am
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:14 am
I agree most of them were. So who did Fergie buy from League One or Two? There weren’t many. Fergie bought well too. Identify a player you want in your team to play a role and then buy him. I agree it’s not rocket science but how many do it successfully. There’s not that many.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:07 amThese were all established Premier League players, right? Amazing.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 amHaha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:16 am
Sorry, but I don’t agree. Man United for the last ten years should tell you this. You think Guardiola is successful only because of his cheque book?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:13 amBut you can win the 'EPL' by 1) outspending everyone else and 2)inheriting an incredible squad and amazing back room team.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:24 am
Thank you but I was talking top level.Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:07 amWycombe Wanderers
Football League Third Division play-offs: 1994[23]
Football Conference: 1992–93[97]
FA Trophy: 1990–91, 1992–93[23]
Leicester City
Football League First Division play-offs: 1996[23]
Football League Cup: 1996–97, 1999–2000[23]
Celtic
Scottish Premier League: 2000–01, 2001–02, 2003–04[23]
Scottish Cup: 2000–01, 2003–04, 2004–05[23]
Scottish League Cup: 2000–01[23]
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:36 am
Comparing Dalglish to Guardiola is as funny as calling Speedie a superstar.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:16 amSorry, but I don’t agree. Man United for the last ten years should tell you this. You think Guardiola is successful only because of his cheque book?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:13 amBut you can win the 'EPL' by 1) outspending everyone else and 2)inheriting an incredible squad and amazing back room team.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:39 am
You think Man Utd have had an incredible squad and an amazing back room team? Man Utd have been throwing good money after bad at catching up, after wrongly assuming for a while that they just had to carry on existing and the success would come naturally.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:16 amSorry, but I don’t agree. Man United for the last ten years should tell you this. You think Guardiola is successful only because of his cheque book?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:13 amBut you can win the 'EPL' by 1) outspending everyone else and 2)inheriting an incredible squad and amazing back room team.
The Guardiola point is facile; he’s a very good manager, existing in a context where some very good managers get bracketed as elite and then essentially have enough resources to make failure unlikely; while their reputations are at their peak, they get leeway to rebuild, have transitional seasons etc, but it’s all finely balanced. Like Mourinho and plenty of others before him, if something did go wrong, he’d find the jobs getting smaller, the resources getting a bit less, and be viewed as past his best. Elite managers are essentially managing their own reputations as elite, as well as managing a squad of players
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:44 am
But I didn’t do either?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:36 amComparing Dalglish to Guardiola is as funny as calling Speedie a superstar.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:16 amSorry, but I don’t agree. Man United for the last ten years should tell you this. You think Guardiola is successful only because of his cheque book?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:13 am
But you can win the 'EPL' by 1) outspending everyone else and 2)inheriting an incredible squad and amazing back room team.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:49 am
No that’s not what I said. I have said that Man United have spent a fortune and have struggled for years. If you could buy the EPL trophy then they would have. They couldn’t.CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:39 amYou think Man Utd have had an incredible squad and an amazing back room team? Man Utd have been throwing good money after bad at catching up, after wrongly assuming for a while that they just had to carry on existing and the success would come naturally.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:16 amSorry, but I don’t agree. Man United for the last ten years should tell you this. You think Guardiola is successful only because of his cheque book?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:13 am
But you can win the 'EPL' by 1) outspending everyone else and 2)inheriting an incredible squad and amazing back room team.
The Guardiola point is facile; he’s a very good manager, existing in a context where some very good managers get bracketed as elite and then essentially have enough resources to make failure unlikely; while their reputations are at their peak, they get leeway to rebuild, have transitional seasons etc, but it’s all finely balanced. Like Mourinho and plenty of others before him, if something did go wrong, he’d find the jobs getting smaller, the resources getting a bit less, and be viewed as past his best. Elite managers are essentially managing their own reputations as elite, as well as managing a squad of players
I have said Daglish cannot, in my opinion be regarded as a poor manager because he’s won at the elite level. I don’t think you can win at the elite levels unless you’re good. That’s it.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:39 am
“If you could buy the EFL trophy they would have”
Utter nonsense. I mean, not to state the obvious, but the ability to buy the EFL trophy was more pronounced at the point where there was less financial doping happening. If there were three Blackburns at the time of Blackburn winning the trophy, then, again to state the obvious, they would have been less likely to win the league. Manchester United can’t buy the title now, because, despite the huge sums involved, their spending power is dwarfed by that of others. The key *now* is limitless resources, creative interpretation of FFP, and strong infrastructure as well as long term planning and management of the football side.
Utter nonsense. I mean, not to state the obvious, but the ability to buy the EFL trophy was more pronounced at the point where there was less financial doping happening. If there were three Blackburns at the time of Blackburn winning the trophy, then, again to state the obvious, they would have been less likely to win the league. Manchester United can’t buy the title now, because, despite the huge sums involved, their spending power is dwarfed by that of others. The key *now* is limitless resources, creative interpretation of FFP, and strong infrastructure as well as long term planning and management of the football side.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:46 am
Interesting. I put it down to the manager and the players. But it’s ok to disagree.CEB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:39 am “If you could buy the EFL trophy they would have”
Utter nonsense. I mean, not to state the obvious, but the ability to buy the EFL trophy was more pronounced at the point where there was less financial doping happening. If there were three Blackburns at the time of Blackburn winning the trophy, then, again to state the obvious, they would have been less likely to win the league. Manchester United can’t buy the title now, because, despite the huge sums involved, their spending power is dwarfed by that of others. The key *now* is limitless resources, creative interpretation of FFP, and strong infrastructure as well as long term planning and management of the football side.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:53 am
“Interesting. But I’ll utterly disregard it”
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:06 pm
This should start a debate: no question that Hoddle was a class player - how should he be rated as a manager?
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:07 pm
Not sure how we got here. I was simply saying Daglish wasn’t a bad manager. That’s all. Up The O’s!
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:10 pm
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:06 pm This should start a debate: no question that Hoddle was a class player - how should he be rated as a manager?
I would be amazed if there isn’t consensus on Hoddle; pretty much everyone will say that he was very impressive tactically and organisationally & was forward thinking at a time english international football was still very much up and down and dull, but was hamstrung by his bad man-management, caused in part by frustration that players less skilled than he was couldn’t follow his instructions, and partly due to having a few odd views that he let creep into his professional life
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:11 pm
He seems to understand players - that project that he started in France to galvanise players who could not find clubs was a a good thing. He also talks some sense as a pundit.
Installing Eileen Drewery as official miracle faith-healer to the England squad - wow! He was sacked from his job for non-footballing reasons. They had no option: he had to go.
Installing Eileen Drewery as official miracle faith-healer to the England squad - wow! He was sacked from his job for non-footballing reasons. They had no option: he had to go.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:38 pm
I think Speedie was definitely top class, you only have to look at the highlights of his time at Coventry, scored some absolute wonder goals and the fans loved him. His partnership with Dixon at Chelsea is still talked about. He was 5'7" and yet scored countless goals with his head. During his time at Leicester (where he was also a legend) he was interviewed and the guy said "you clearly have some natural gift that makes you jump higher than other people", Speedie responded "it's nothing natural, it's hard work, hours and hours after training at Barnsley" That's a great lesson for any young players.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:04 amCome on Speedie was ordinary at best. You’re not suggesting he was top class surely?Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:01 amSpeedie had played almost 250 Division 1 matches for Chelsea and Coventry as well as scoring 6 in 12 for Liverpool before he went to Blackburn - for just the one season in Division 2.DrWindy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:57 am
Haha, I am not a Daglish fan but he got Shearer when Ferguson couldn’t. He made David Speedie a figurehead when he’d done nothing anywhere. He bought Sherwood for peanuts and made him a hell of a player. Same with Wilcox, Lesaux. Batty. I could go on. You don’t win the EPL if you can’t manage and have tactical nous. It’s the top level.
Oh and let's not forget when he wiped out the nasty thug that was Van Den Hauwe (Chelsea V Everton), he deserves extra points for that.
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:59 pm
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 1:07 pm
“Nasty thug that was Van Den Hauwe”
Stay on topic, that’s one for the trans thread, no?
Stay on topic, that’s one for the trans thread, no?
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 2:43 pm
Re: Do the very best footballers make the best managers?
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 3:24 pm
Depends what you call a Decent Player. I'd say Arteta,Guardiola were decent players.