Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:09 am It shouldnt be that promotion (at any level) equals financial disaster. It should be rewarding financially. I guess clubs arent forced to pay higher(competitive) wages but if you dont you'll be going straight down again.

Problem is that if you’re already selling out your ground in League 1 (which Orient do), what additional revenue can you realistically obtain if you get promoted to the championship?

Some additional TV money maybe? A few more shirts sold in the club shop? Increase ticket prices a bit?

Surely any additional revenue is outweighed by the need to increase player wages (either through bringing in better players who cost more, or existing players with promotion clauses in their contracts).

You could always build a new stadium but that takes years and can potentially take decades to pay off.

Getting promoted SHOULD be finically rewarding, but reality is that it probably has the opposite impact.

Should be a wage cap in each division but it won’t ever happen

There shouldn't be 25%/50% wage hikes in their contracts.

Give them a small rise, give them a bonus for avoiding relegation, give the likes of El Miz a competitive wage, but just go with what you've got.

It's not as if Hunt or Beckles are going to leave and join another Championship club, is it.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:46 am

Wally Banter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:01 am Stating the bleeding obvious, but it’s ridiculous that the financial inequity across the leagues is now such that we basically need to choose between an existence stuck in L1 or L2 - with no prospect of winning anything significant - or mortgaging the whole club on a tilt at something bigger.

I don't get this.

We still need to to a bit of tweaking to the remnants of the L2 squad but Wellens has shown he is capable of producing a L1 promotion challenging team with the existing budget. There's no need to mortgage anything to make it to the Championship.

I suspect most players have it written in their contract for a rise if we hit the championship, so if we get there that's an immediate requirement for more finance even if we don't change the team. Not putting such clauses in contracts will not make it easy to sign new players or renew contracts. There is however a hidden benefit to promotion that all players potentially have a higher transfer value just for being higher league players. Also buying clubs may perceive they can't necessarily get our players for peanuts.

They've moved toward it in recent years but the board are yet to get that big sale, Hector, Kemp, Ogie went for a bit of money but not insane, I think they believe Peterborough is the model, getting millions for investments.

The other big problem is compared to other clubs in League 1/2, they've got to pay more in wages to all staff at the club including players as to live in London is far more expensive than say some random town in Wales

The problem is how far can a club goes that get 7/8k every week, it would be the lowest in the Championship, Orient is only 11th in League One, the blunt truth is for the club to go anywhere it needs to move ground but that requires considerable investment and time

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:47 am
I suspect most players have it written in their contract for a rise if we hit the championship, so if we get there that's an immediate requirement for more finance even if we don't change the team. Not putting such clauses in contracts will not make it easy to sign new players or renew contracts.

I can't see it making or breaking many deals, if all other terms have been agreed. Take our biggest signing this summer Dan Agyei the First, I'm sure he was more interested in his basic and his goal and win bonuses than what he might theoretically get in one or two seasons time (when he'd be renegotiating anyway).

I believe Richie mentioned 25/50% uplifts in his post outburst interview - that's madness.

essexfootball wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:39 pm They've moved toward it in recent years but the board are yet to get that big sale, Hector, Kemp, Ogie went for a bit of money but not insane, I think they believe Peterborough is the model, getting millions for investments.

How have we moved toward it? Our model seems to be buying in early/mid 20 somethings with some sort of history who we can improve, supplemented by loaning in teenage Premier league academy players...

essexfootball wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:39 pm
The other big problem is compared to other clubs in League 1/2, they've got to pay more in wages to all staff at the club including players as to live in London is far more expensive than say some random town in Wales

Sure, but in terms of attracting players, we're not some random town in Wales.

Not owning our ground means building a new one will need to be done from a starting point of nothing. The models you'd look at to copy, Brentford and Brighton, had lifelong mega rich fans foot the bill whilst also being data wizards who could buy and sell players in a way that gave them the ability to punch above weight. We don't have that in our current owners, as good as they've been.

I find it really hard to imagine how a new ground gets delivered. It would require so much money time and risk. What's the upper threshold of average gates for us - 10k? 12k? What happens financially if performances went south and we went back towards the 4,5k mark?

We're competing for land with house builders who will pay a small fortune to be in Waltham Forest. They'll also deliver a product in housing that will give the Council a much better return through stuff like central government bonuses and council tax.

We're basically hoping someone will come in, front possibly tens of millions, in exchange for...? The off chance that we make the premiership in the next decade or two?

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:46 pm

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:47 am
I suspect most players have it written in their contract for a rise if we hit the championship, so if we get there that's an immediate requirement for more finance even if we don't change the team. Not putting such clauses in contracts will not make it easy to sign new players or renew contracts.

I believe Richie mentioned 25/50% uplifts in his post outburst interview - that's madness.

Unless it's standard practice. I doubt anyone has a clue what the norm is for promoted players.

Why an American to invest we have an orient supporter who’s minted, he funds his theatres so why cannot spare of some of his billions on a club that he watched as a boy and still supports us know,well his brother does, so mr Travis please ask sir Andrew Iloyd Webber to or remaking matches,Even perhaps he could make the greater game into a musical
I

Woodford Orient wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:58 pm Why an American to invest we have an orient supporter who’s minted, he funds his theatres so why cannot spare of some of his billions on a club that he watched as a boy and still supports us know,well his brother does, so mr Travis please ask sir Andrew Iloyd Webber to or remaking matches,Even perhaps he could make the greater game into a musical
I

Unfortunately the club won’t go there, they don’t want the” Phantom of the Opera “ to replace Tijuana Brass

B.whitehouse+10more wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:11 pm

Woodford Orient wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:58 pm Why an American to invest we have an orient supporter who’s minted, he funds his theatres so why cannot spare of some of his billions on a club that he watched as a boy and still supports us know,well his brother does, so mr Travis please ask sir Andrew Iloyd Webber to or remaking matches,Even perhaps he could make the greater game into a musical
I

Unfortunately the club won’t go there, they don’t want the” Phantom of the Opera “ to replace Tijuana Brass

I believe he has been sounded out before but did not want to get involved.

As has already been said, they have talked about it for a good while, it’s time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk.

PoundhillO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:19 pm As has already been said, they have talked about it for a good while, it’s time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk.

What does this mean?

PoundhillO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:19 pm As has already been said, they have talked about it for a good while, it’s time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk.

This board has done an enormous amount for the club - Your comment is just another indication of what an entitled fanny you are, constantly demanding that the club spends money that we currently haven't got - they have outlined a plan to get us where we want to go I think the best thing is to leave them to get on with and realise it's not going to happen overnight. The club had a target to rebuild and get out the National League and the same with promotion from League Two - both met. They have walked the walk ever since they took this club over. There are a few idiots like you who just don't see it.

Wally Banter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:32 pm

PoundhillO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:19 pm As has already been said, they have talked about it for a good while, it’s time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk.

What does this mean?

It means he is an entitled idiot who thinks the club does not enough spend money. He would prefer we spent money we haven't got now. rather than do it in a structured manner.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:56 pm We're competing for land with house builders who will pay a small fortune to be in Waltham Forest. They'll also deliver a product in housing that will give the Council a much better return through stuff like central government bonuses and council tax.

We're not competing with them - we're part of the same deal.

With football as a thriving industry at every level of the game in this country, a stadium can also bring lots of secondary economic, social and cultural benefits to an area. Orient in a bigger stadium in the same borough is a very attractive prospect to WF. That's why a lot of local authorities have coughed up cold hard taxpayer cash to help these things along.

Top of the JES wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:35 pm

Wally Banter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:32 pm

PoundhillO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:19 pm As has already been said, they have talked about it for a good while, it’s time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk.

What does this mean?

It means he is an entitled idiot who thinks the club does not enough spend money. He would prefer we spent money we haven't got now. rather than do it in a structured manner.

I go would further and say he thinks the current owners and board should spend more of their own money

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:37 am There shouldn't be 25%/50% wage hikes in their contracts.

Give them a small rise, give them a bonus for avoiding relegation, give the likes of El Miz a competitive wage, but just go with what you've got.

It's not as if Hunt or Beckles are going to leave and join another Championship club, is it.

Even 5-10% raises add up across an entire squad. I was also referring to the fact that to sign new “championship level” players you’d probably need to offer 10%+ on the current squad average to attract them.

Expensive stuff.

OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:43 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:56 pm We're competing for land with house builders who will pay a small fortune to be in Waltham Forest. They'll also deliver a product in housing that will give the Council a much better return through stuff like central government bonuses and council tax.

We're not competing with them - we're part of the same deal.

With football as a thriving industry at every level of the game in this country, a stadium can also bring lots of secondary economic, social and cultural benefits to an area. Orient in a bigger stadium in the same borough is a very attractive prospect to WF. That's why a lot of local authorities have coughed up cold hard taxpayer cash to help these things along.

If Nige was such a good business man he’d be using our awful food in the ground as a selling point for land. Local restaurants will thrive!

The Reverend wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:20 pm

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:37 am There shouldn't be 25%/50% wage hikes in their contracts.

Give them a small rise, give them a bonus for avoiding relegation, give the likes of El Miz a competitive wage, but just go with what you've got.

It's not as if Hunt or Beckles are going to leave and join another Championship club, is it.

Even 5-10% raises add up across an entire squad. I was also referring to the fact that to sign new “championship level” players you’d probably need to offer 10%+ on the current squad average to attract them.

Expensive stuff.

If every player had an inbuilt 5-10% rise (which is totally reasonable), then I'd expect the total of the playing wage bill to increase by about 5 - 10%. That would be totally manageable given increased income.

I wouldn't be expecting us to go out and buy a load of Championship players, that's the point I'm making. I understand the finances don't support that and we would go with what we have, even though we'd spend the season in the scrap of our lives to stay up.

The Championship is the economics of the madhouse. Essentially paying nearly half of premier league wages in the hope of getting to the holy money grail that is the Premier League. The board have probably had a wake up call, but unfortunately it never transpired in the January transfer window. Sadly bad luck has landed on us and we need a few miracles to keep going, but let's keep on dreaming and keep the faith.

Wally Banter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:32 pm

PoundhillO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:19 pm As has already been said, they have talked about it for a good while, it’s time to walk the walk instead of talk the talk.

What does this mean?

It means that they have talked previously about further investment to enable us to progress further with a view to the Championship and the question of a larger ground.
The talking has gone on for some time, it’s now time to bring in the investors needed .

The roadmap to the Championship is about to get really interesting.

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