Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:51 pm**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:45 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:23 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:59 pm

I will answer your question however it is only my opinion obviously. Southgate is a good man manager and is very good addressing the media. His tactical awareness is nil in my book, for the past 5 years or so we have been blessed with class players such as Kane,Foden,Bellingham,Grealish,Saka and Rice to name but a few. We should have won at the very least one if not two trophies by now.We haven’t. His main concern is not loosing and that’s his priority each and every game. I’ve watched England international teams since we won the World Cup and this is by far the best squad of players we have had even eclipsing the golden Beckham generation and that team was buggered by Ericsson too. You quoted semi finals and even a final but have we actually won anything. No. Never in my life have I seen so ineptitude shown by a manager as he showed in in the euro final. His constant belief in players that are way past there best is unbelievable. He is so far up the FA’s back side it’s a joke and only gets the job because nobody else wants it. Now let me ask you a question 1) if Pep Guardiola had the squad, do you think he would win something and do you think a top six premiership club would employ Southgate
You lost me when you stated the players we have been blessed with for the past 5 years or so.

Only Kane has been on that list for 5 years. Even 3 years ago, only Kane would be universally accepted as deserving a start and only Foden would have been in with a realistic shout. Saka and Grealish were fitful at best and Bellingham was only 17 and been at Dortmund for only a few weeks.
Most people, Like Monkey here, fail to understand why Southgate sets up England like he does. He's not negative or boring, he's pragmatic. He's stated that time and time again that he sets up to win tournament football games, not to be easy on the eye.

This rubbish about blessed with players. We haven't been blessed with any genuinely world class centre backs for about 20 years. Southgate realises its our weak spot and therefore plays accordingly, with 2 holding midfielders, or 3 CB's, or both. Because if we didnt we'd ship 3-4 goals every game.

The Southgate haters dont understand football or just have short memories on how poorly we've played at tournaments since 96.

Agree completely. The Southgate era has, by far, seen the most sustained level of tournament advancement than any other before. And yet, if I'm to believe his critics, he's a negative moron.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:54 pm**

Also seems odd to slag him off for being too loyal to out of form players while simultaneously pre-emptively slagging him off if he doesn't play Rashford who is, er, in absolutely rotten form.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:55 pm**

Have I imagined it, or didn’t we score 13 goals in 5 games at last year’s World Cup? Doesn’t sound overly negative to me.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:00 pm**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:45 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:23 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:59 pm

I will answer your question however it is only my opinion obviously. Southgate is a good man manager and is very good addressing the media. His tactical awareness is nil in my book, for the past 5 years or so we have been blessed with class players such as Kane,Foden,Bellingham,Grealish,Saka and Rice to name but a few. We should have won at the very least one if not two trophies by now.We haven’t. His main concern is not loosing and that’s his priority each and every game. I’ve watched England international teams since we won the World Cup and this is by far the best squad of players we have had even eclipsing the golden Beckham generation and that team was buggered by Ericsson too. You quoted semi finals and even a final but have we actually won anything. No. Never in my life have I seen so ineptitude shown by a manager as he showed in in the euro final. His constant belief in players that are way past there best is unbelievable. He is so far up the FA’s back side it’s a joke and only gets the job because nobody else wants it. Now let me ask you a question 1) if Pep Guardiola had the squad, do you think he would win something and do you think a top six premiership club would employ Southgate
You lost me when you stated the players we have been blessed with for the past 5 years or so.

Only Kane has been on that list for 5 years. Even 3 years ago, only Kane would be universally accepted as deserving a start and only Foden would have been in with a realistic shout. Saka and Grealish were fitful at best and Bellingham was only 17 and been at Dortmund for only a few weeks.
Most people, Like Monkey here, fail to understand why Southgate sets up England like he does. He's not negative or boring, he's pragmatic. He's stated that time and time again that he sets up to win tournament football games, not to be easy on the eye.

This rubbish about blessed with players. We haven't been blessed with any genuinely world class centre backs for about 20 years. Southgate realises its our weak spot and therefore plays accordingly, with 2 holding midfielders, or 3 CB's, or both. Because if we didnt we'd ship 3-4 goals every game.

The Southgate haters dont understand football or just have short memories on how poorly we've played at tournaments since 96.

Didn’t we loose to Hungry at home 0-4

pragmatic do me a favour, more like boring and fearful, yes we don’t possess good centre backs but surely there’s better players than Maguire and Henderson even Stones is better.So you you must agree apart from average CB’s we have for the past couple of years have world class players and a second class manager

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:04 pm**

Think there's legitimate criticism to be made about the fact he's still picking Maguire and particularly Henderson, and to them play dumb about why fans object to Henderson being a money grabbing hypocrite. But his record as england manager is incredible, it's only now do we start to look like we have a well rounded squad capable of going toe to toe with the best teams. Which is what we did against France and were incredibly unlucky to lose.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:04 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:51 pm
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:45 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:23 pm
You lost me when you stated the players we have been blessed with for the past 5 years or so.

Only Kane has been on that list for 5 years. Even 3 years ago, only Kane would be universally accepted as deserving a start and only Foden would have been in with a realistic shout. Saka and Grealish were fitful at best and Bellingham was only 17 and been at Dortmund for only a few weeks.
Most people, Like Monkey here, fail to understand why Southgate sets up England like he does. He's not negative or boring, he's pragmatic. He's stated that time and time again that he sets up to win tournament football games, not to be easy on the eye.

This rubbish about blessed with players. We haven't been blessed with any genuinely world class centre backs for about 20 years. Southgate realises its our weak spot and therefore plays accordingly, with 2 holding midfielders, or 3 CB's, or both. Because if we didnt we'd ship 3-4 goals every game.

The Southgate haters dont understand football or just have short memories on how poorly we've played at tournaments since 96.
Agree completely. The Southgate era has, by far, seen the most sustained level of tournament advancement than any other before. And yet, if I'm to believe his critics, he's a negative moron.

If and when he wins something I’ll hold my hands up but at this stage there firmly at my side. Dear o dear some people are easily pleased with second or third place on here no wonder we never win anything

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:05 pm**

Yes, I've always been happy with Southgate as our manager.The only little criticism I have over the last few years is that he seemed to hold back going for the killer 2nd goal against Italy, Euro 2020 final.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:48 pm Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce have won...what?

Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:11 pm**

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:48 pm Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce have won...what?
Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.

Actually Southgate got Middlesbrough relegated I do believe. Look I’m like most England supporters and want us to do well every game but I honestly feel with him in charge we will win nothing, and that would be a travesty imo

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:12 pm**

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:51 pm
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:45 pm
LittleMate wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:23 pm
You lost me when you stated the players we have been blessed with for the past 5 years or so.

Only Kane has been on that list for 5 years. Even 3 years ago, only Kane would be universally accepted as deserving a start and only Foden would have been in with a realistic shout. Saka and Grealish were fitful at best and Bellingham was only 17 and been at Dortmund for only a few weeks.
Most people, Like Monkey here, fail to understand why Southgate sets up England like he does. He's not negative or boring, he's pragmatic. He's stated that time and time again that he sets up to win tournament football games, not to be easy on the eye.

This rubbish about blessed with players. We haven't been blessed with any genuinely world class centre backs for about 20 years. Southgate realises its our weak spot and therefore plays accordingly, with 2 holding midfielders, or 3 CB's, or both. Because if we didnt we'd ship 3-4 goals every game.

The Southgate haters dont understand football or just have short memories on how poorly we've played at tournaments since 96.
Agree completely. The Southgate era has, by far, seen the most sustained level of tournament advancement than any other before. And yet, if I'm to believe his critics, he's a negative moron.

And nevermind tournaments. Because Southgate has made qualifying look easy, people forget the dogs ear we used to make of it every few years

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:19 pm**

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:48 pm Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce have won...what?
Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.

SPL doesn't count, anyone can win that. His bang average career in England is more instructive.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:31 pm**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:12 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:51 pm
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:45 pm
Most people, Like Monkey here, fail to understand why Southgate sets up England like he does. He's not negative or boring, he's pragmatic. He's stated that time and time again that he sets up to win tournament football games, not to be easy on the eye.

This rubbish about blessed with players. We haven't been blessed with any genuinely world class centre backs for about 20 years. Southgate realises its our weak spot and therefore plays accordingly, with 2 holding midfielders, or 3 CB's, or both. Because if we didnt we'd ship 3-4 goals every game.

The Southgate haters dont understand football or just have short memories on how poorly we've played at tournaments since 96.
Agree completely. The Southgate era has, by far, seen the most sustained level of tournament advancement than any other before. And yet, if I'm to believe his critics, he's a negative moron.
And nevermind tournaments. Because Southgate has made qualifying look easy, people forget the dogs ear we used to make of it every few years

We’ve never had a group of players like Southgate has and he will cock it up mark my words young man

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:32 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:19 pm
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:48 pm Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce have won...what?
Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.
SPL doesn't count, anyone can win that. His bang average career in England is more instructive.

Don’t let max know that Joe

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:42 pm**

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:19 pm
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:48 pm Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce have won...what?
Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.
SPL doesn't count, anyone can win that. His bang average career in England is more instructive.

Graeme Souness:
Scottish Premier League 1989-90, Scottish Premier League 1988-89, Scottish Premier League 1986-87, League Cup 2001-02, Turkish FA Cup 1995-96, FA Cup 1991-92, Scottish League Cup 1990-91, Scottish League Cup 1988-89, Scottish League Cup 1987-88, Scottish League Cup 1986-87, Promotion to Premier League 2000-01

Gareth Southgate:
Nothing

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:46 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:11 pm
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:48 pm Graeme Souness and Stuart Pearce have won...what?
Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.
Actually Southgate got Middlesbrough relegated I do believe. Look I’m like most England supporters and want us to do well every game but I honestly feel with him in charge we will win nothing, and that would be a travesty imo

But weve only ever won one tournament & that was at home. Only Venbles got to a final & that team was better than the current one. Name an English manager who would do better than Southgate. It's not Just down to a manager.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:51 pm**

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:31 pm
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:12 pm
Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:51 pm

Agree completely. The Southgate era has, by far, seen the most sustained level of tournament advancement than any other before. And yet, if I'm to believe his critics, he's a negative moron.
And nevermind tournaments. Because Southgate has made qualifying look easy, people forget the dogs ear we used to make of it every few years
We’ve never had a group of players like Southgate has and he will cock it up mark my words young man

I'd argue the group in 1998 and 2002 were better and look where that got us. It's a hard, hard job and we are lucky to have someone who knows how to qualify, get the best out of the players, manage the media, get people at home excited and do pretty well on the pitch.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:57 pm**

Joe315 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:46 pm
Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:11 pm
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm

Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.
Actually Southgate got Middlesbrough relegated I do believe. Look I’m like most England supporters and want us to do well every game but I honestly feel with him in charge we will win nothing, and that would be a travesty imo
But weve only ever won one tournament & that was at home. Only Venbles got to a final & that team was better than the current one. Name an English manager who would do better than Southgate. It's not Just down to a manager.

Got to correct you on that Joe we only got to the semi final, something I really blame Southgate for. Not for missing a penalty but in our euro final putting two young kids on a minute before the end and making them take penalties, unforgivable in my book. He could have ruined there careers when he knew how it affected him throughout his playing career. Now tell me honestly would you have liked to have been in there shoes.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:07 pm**

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:42 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:19 pm
Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:06 pm

Graeme Souness has won 3 Scottish Chamionships plus cups, in a 17 year managerial career Gareth Southgate has won precisely nothing.
SPL doesn't count, anyone can win that. His bang average career in England is more instructive.
Graeme Souness:
Scottish Premier League 1989-90, Scottish Premier League 1988-89, Scottish Premier League 1986-87, League Cup 2001-02, Turkish FA Cup 1995-96, FA Cup 1991-92, Scottish League Cup 1990-91, Scottish League Cup 1988-89, Scottish League Cup 1987-88, Scottish League Cup 1986-87, Promotion to Premier League 2000-01

Gareth Southgate:
Nothing

So one promotion from the Championship then? Steve Bruce has 5. Granted he won the League Cup. Him and Steve McClaren up there with the all time greats.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:20 pm**

Right that’s it. I’m off to the garden in the budgie smugglers listening to Ken Dodd greatest hits CD and a nice glass of creme de month

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:26 pm**

England probably has the strongest league in the world, and probably the best depth of league quality below it. There is no reason England shouldn't have been winning trophies similar to Germany, France, Italy, etc. Even Denmark and Greece have won something since we have. People laud Southgate achievements due to the previous failure of others. He has won nothing, and would have gone long ago managing other countries.

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:30 pm**

If he’s doing such a decent job then were he to resign tomorrow he’d soon enough walk into a top job elsewhere, right?

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:31 pm**

How is Southgate to blame for England failing to win tournaments won by Denmark and Greece in 1992 and 2004?

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:33 pm**

So, if I’ve understood right, it’s Alf Ramsay = success and every single other England manager = failure? And despite Southgate getting closer to wining a tournament than everyone but Ramsay, he’s crap?

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:38 pm**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:04 pm Think there's legitimate criticism to be made about the fact he's still picking Maguire and particularly Henderson, and to them play dumb about why fans object to Henderson being a money grabbing hypocrite. But his record as england manager is incredible, it's only now do we start to look like we have a well rounded squad capable of going toe to toe with the best teams. Which is what we did against France and were incredibly unlucky to lose.

“Play dumb about why fans object to Henderson being a money grabbing hypocrite”

Phew, someone else sees it

Posted: **Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:46 pm**

Wally Banter wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:33 pm So, if I’ve understood right, it’s Alf Ramsay = success and every single other England manager = failure? And despite Southgate getting closer to wining a tournament than everyone but Ramsay, he’s crap?

I don't think Southgate is crap, but I don't think doing slightly better than the previous under achievers makes him great.

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