Independent Leyton Orient Forum

I live in Rayleigh Essex.
I have a pint with loads of different people
Some I like some not so much.
We love football cricket
We look after each other when needed
We laugh
Some work some are retired
The one thing people will not change is politics
Out of all of us there are no more than 6 anti Conservastives
The rest are dyed in the wool working class Tories
Our MP is Mark Francois.
If this is typical nothing is going to change round here.
This country is on its knees.

Lenny:- Why are you bringing Starmer in to this debate? Probably you are such a rabid Tory, you can think of no redeeming factors for them, so shift the blame elsewhere. LOL You should be a stand-up comedian.

He is Leader of the Opposition, will be interesting on what he will do should he be elected.

Something I haven't seen mentioned, perhaps because I have haven't looked closely enough, is the impact on the construction industry of cancelling this project. Presumably, to have a strong industry, and to be able to build houses, it needs to be given large contracts. Also, will reducing govt investment slow down economic growth, especially as alternative projects are likely to lag behind HS2.

I guess similar financial arguments were had in 19th and 20th centuries over the building of the railways and in 17th, over canals. Back then we had the benefit of 1000s of impoverished Irishmen working their arses off to survive. Can we imagine our life now without railways and canal (canals for pleasure of course).

A significant contributor to the increase in costs for this project was multiple decisions to tunnel instead of install surface track, as an appeasement to local campaign groups along the route. Most of these were based along the Southern section, and in Conservative constituencies.

Obviously this project was always going to have an environmental impact, but the initial assessment was that this was a price worth paying so long as the full project was delivered. We now have environmental impact without the benefit.

Another reason for the spiralling costs is the sheer number of consultancies and sub-contractors in place of direct award and direct government supervision/intervention. My company has been dealing with HS2 on some compulsory purchases and engineering impact studies. It has proven to be near on impossible to have straightforward discussions on key items and get decisions made without having to go through a complex myriad of layers.

It patently clear that the project has been an absolute sh*t show. This has happened under the stewardship of Tory governments. Anyone falling for the "ah, but what would Starmer do?" deflection tactic is missing the point.

Is it because of this that the London Astoria had to be demolished?

No. That was crossrail.

Ah yes.

But it is because of this that the award winning pub, the Bree Louise, had to be closed in 2018 and knocked down.

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:26 am But it is because of this that the award winning pub, the Bree Louise, had to be closed in 2018 and knocked down.

Imagine doing that and then only going to Old Oak Common. That would be the biggest outrage of all.

Still faced with the choice between a pint in the Bree Louise or getting to Birmingham quickly, I'd choose the former every time.

Who are the people who need to get to Birmingham more quickly, and for what reason? I'm being serious when I ask what the perceived boost to the economy is by cutting travel time by a few minutes. Surely business people don't actually travel to meetings in this day and age, or if they do, not by train one would imagine. It's usually nice to get to your destination as quickly as possible, but does this provide a huge economic spin-off? Please enlighten me someone

Bluecap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:05 am I live in Rayleigh Essex.
I have a pint with loads of different people
Some I like some not so much.
We love football cricket
We look after each other when needed
We laugh
Some work some are retired
The one thing people will not change is politics
Out of all of us there are no more than 6 anti Conservastives
The rest are dyed in the wool working class Tories
Our MP is Mark Francois.
If this is typical nothing is going to change round here.
This country is on its knees.

I think people can change, you've just got to get them out of the (a) my vote won't make any difference anyway, and (b) they're all the same, mindset.

Celtient wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:47 am Who are the people who need to get to Birmingham more quickly, and for what reason? I'm being serious when I ask what the perceived boost to the economy is by cutting travel time by a few minutes. Surely business people don't actually travel to meetings in this day and age, or if they do, not by train one would imagine. It's usually nice to get to your destination as quickly as possible, but does this provide a huge economic spin-off? Please enlighten me someone

I believe it's not so much about the speed, as increasing capacity on the tracks, so that other local services and freight can run more easily too.

Celtient wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:47 am Who are the people who need to get to Birmingham more quickly, and for what reason? I'm being serious when I ask what the perceived boost to the economy is by cutting travel time by a few minutes. Surely business people don't actually travel to meetings in this day and age, or if they do, not by train one would imagine. It's usually nice to get to your destination as quickly as possible, but does this provide a huge economic spin-off? Please enlighten me someone

As o-no has stated, the real benefit of HS2 was never about any reduction in travel time. That was just a bonus. But it is interesting that it is this point that seems to have been allowed to become the main discussion point of the project, and hardly ever about the much increased capacity it would bring across the rest of the rail network.

If I was being super cynical, I'd be inclined to think that such a PR mistake was deliberate.

Reading analysis just now that the decision not to extend north will actually _reduce_ freight capacity on the railways and force it back onto the roads because of the knock on effect of having to upgrade the northern section to deal with HS2 trains.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:03 am Reading analysis just now that the decision not to extend north will actually _reduce_ freight capacity on the railways and force it back onto the roads because of the knock on effect of having to upgrade the northern section to deal with HS2 trains.

Thats about the sum of it.

Most Tory chums have business connected with road transport rather than rail & roll into that road fuel tax revenue. There has been a similar precedent. The 1963-1965 Beeching Reports, orchestrated by Transport Minister Earnest Marples. Marples had a background with a successful road construction company. When opening the M1 motorway, he said: "This motorway starts a new era in road travel. It is in keeping with the bold scientific age in which we live. It is a powerful weapon to add to our transport system.

Great thread