Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:32 am

Getting more seats than the Labour Party

Increasing their vote share every election for the last 6 elections

That's just a reflection of the stupidity/gullibility of the electorate and the fact that we have a predominantly right wing media which supports them. What have they done well as a government?

Calling the electorate stupid is something us left-wingers need to stop doing. It's part of many reasons why left-wing politics is being shunned at the ballot box and why Labour lost seats in traditional heartlands - socialism is being viewed by many on the outside as the interest of liberal Hoxton type hipsters and celebrity luvvie types.

Even a strident left-winger like me cringes when I see comments like this. Labour needs to work out why this happened and what they're going to do about it - at the moment, Starmer still doesn't seem to be cutting through.

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:15 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 am

That's just a reflection of the stupidity/gullibility of the electorate and the fact that we have a predominantly right wing media which supports them. What have they done well as a government?

Calling the electorate stupid is something us left-wingers need to stop doing. It's part of many reasons why left-wing politics is being shunned at the ballot box and why Labour lost seats in traditional heartlands - socialism is being viewed by many on the outside as the interest of liberal Hoxton type hipsters and celebrity luvvie types.

Even a strident left-winger like me cringes when I see comments like this. Labour needs to work out why this happened and what they're going to do about it - at the moment, Starmer still doesn't seem to be cutting through.

Agreed. One of the problems of a MB like this is that you don't know me well enough to know that I made that comment firmly tongue in cheek to get a rise out of PAM. He's no stranger to such postings so I was just replying in kind.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:39 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 am

That's just a reflection of the stupidity/gullibility of the electorate and the fact that we have a predominantly right wing media which supports them. What have they done well as a government?

Calling the electorate stupid is something us left-wingers need to stop doing. It's part of many reasons why left-wing politics is being shunned at the ballot box and why Labour lost seats in traditional heartlands - socialism is being viewed by many on the outside as the interest of liberal Hoxton type hipsters and celebrity luvvie types.

Even a strident left-winger like me cringes when I see comments like this. Labour needs to work out why this happened and what they're going to do about it - at the moment, Starmer still doesn't seem to be cutting through.

Agree. But it is so hard not to say when its like Turkeys voting for xmas every few years. Infuriating

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:35 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 am

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:32 am

Getting more seats than the Labour Party

Increasing their vote share every election for the last 6 elections

That's just a reflection of the stupidity/gullibility of the electorate and the fact that we have a predominantly right wing media which supports them. What have they done well as a government?

Calling the electorate stupid is something us left-wingers need to stop doing. It's part of many reasons why left-wing politics is being shunned at the ballot box and why Labour lost seats in traditional heartlands - socialism is being viewed by many on the outside as the interest of liberal Hoxton type hipsters and celebrity luvvie types.

Even a strident left-winger like me cringes when I see comments like this. Labour needs to work out why this happened and what they're going to do about it - at the moment, Starmer still doesn't seem to be cutting through.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:59 am Created plenty of jobs, jobs that pay moneymthat allow you to live, buy a house, car holiday or whatever it is that floats your boat.

Created the highest number of people in work ever.
Zero hours contract 2 hours work a week for £9.50 ph
Created one of if no the lowest unemployed number in our history.
Manipulated benefits system not to count the unemployed
Record investment in the NHS
Havent spent money on the NHS in " Real Terms" anywhere near what is needed
Allow councils to build homes once more
Councils have always been allowed to build houses.
They just dont have the money to because of tory cuts to budget
Apprenticeships
City & Guilds not what it was . More cuts from department of education
Record inward investment in to our country
Well got to sort out border control fiasco somehow
Cut red tape
Cutting red tape meant LFB were not in charge if fire regs since 2011/12 6 years later Grenfell
Education with accountability via the academy system.
Not as good as city & guilds
Leading the climate change efforts in the world
Shutting manufacturing buisnesses losing a steel industry does that
Reduction in fuel bills through legislation
You think ?
Income tax thresholds increased yearly
The rich get richer the country gets poorer
Low inflation
Have you bought a bag of chips recently ?
Defect was reducing and moving to surplus before this virus struck
Defect ???
Pension annuity scrapped
Buying a pension after you retire is not the same as saving through contribution all of your working life
BREXIT
F*cked .
There's plenty more to list, but I've got a things to do.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 pm The problem being their membership is so far removed from their core vote (that they secretley despise) that it's nigh on impossible for them to bridge the divide (Cue personal anecdotes)

Good luck winning over your average person in Rother Valley by calling them stupid, telling them their concerns over immigration are invalid because "Hey look at GDP studies" having endless arguments over the minutiae over whether someone with a cock is a woman and telling Terry who's been unemployed since council cutbacks lost his binman job that he has white privilege

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:37 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 pm The problem being their membership is so far removed from their core vote (that they secretley despise) that it's nigh on impossible for them to bridge the divide (Cue personal anecdotes)

Good luck winning over your average person in Rother Valley by calling them stupid, telling them their concerns over immigration are invalid because "Hey look at GDP studies" having endless arguments over the minutiae over whether someone with a cock is a woman and telling Terry who's been unemployed since council cutbacks lost his binman job that he has white privilege

Sadly, this is an uncomfortable truth for many lefties who refuse to accept Labour's disconnect with it's traditional vote. Whilst Labour tends to perform and resonate with metropolitan areas, it's failed to maintain any link in the traditional industrial areas and can't rely on the old adage that someone in Doncaster for instance would vote for a donkey if it had a labour rosette on it's arse. Sadly I don't right now see that changing regardless of how odious and incompetent Boris & Co are.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:00 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:37 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 pm The problem being their membership is so far removed from their core vote (that they secretley despise) that it's nigh on impossible for them to bridge the divide (Cue personal anecdotes)

Good luck winning over your average person in Rother Valley by calling them stupid, telling them their concerns over immigration are invalid because "Hey look at GDP studies" having endless arguments over the minutiae over whether someone with a cock is a woman and telling Terry who's been unemployed since council cutbacks lost his binman job that he has white privilege

Sadly, this is an uncomfortable truth for many lefties who refuse to accept Labour's disconnect with it's traditional vote. Whilst Labour tends to perform and resonate with metropolitan areas, it's failed to maintain any link in the traditional industrial areas and can't rely on the old adage that someone in Doncaster for instance would vote for a donkey if it had a labour rosette on it's arse. Sadly I don't right now see that changing regardless of how odious and incompetent Boris & Co are.

Tories still 6-8% ahead dependening on your pollster of choice (enough for a majority) despite...... well there's too much to list.

Would you prefer them to hold the course and just hope that they'll win a majority (without Scotland) because the Tories will have governed for 14, 19, 24 years?

Or do you think that maybe New Labour might have tapped into something and you can meld (mild) patriotism, tabloid policies and yet still help the disadvantaged and improve public services simultaneously?

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:26 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:00 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:37 pm

Sadly, this is an uncomfortable truth for many lefties who refuse to accept Labour's disconnect with it's traditional vote. Whilst Labour tends to perform and resonate with metropolitan areas, it's failed to maintain any link in the traditional industrial areas and can't rely on the old adage that someone in Doncaster for instance would vote for a donkey if it had a labour rosette on it's arse. Sadly I don't right now see that changing regardless of how odious and incompetent Boris & Co are.

Tories still 6-8% ahead dependening on your pollster of choice (enough for a majority) despite...... well there's too much to list.

Would you prefer them to hold the course and just hope that they'll win a majority (without Scotland) because the Tories will have governed for 14, 19, 24 years?

Or do you think that maybe New Labour might have tapped into something and you can meld (mild) patriotism, tabloid policies and yet still help the disadvantaged and improve public services simultaneously?

There is too much to list in terms of Tory failings but it's sobering that Labour, even with what looks ostensibly to be a more electable leader, aren't at least level. Enough evidence to suggest that perhaps Labour won't govern again without some form of coalition with the SNP and smaller parties in the future. All of which has proven to be excellent news for the Tories in previous elections with the pic of Milliband in Salmond's pocket. That sort of stuff sticks.

Of course New Labour tapped into something different - I still am of the opinion that the personality of Blair played out well against a tired out Tory Party which was ripe for a good kicking after 18 years. Not sure we're in equivalent times now. Policy wise, it's easy to forget that Labour 97-03 was fairly progressive with decent improvement in public services etc. At this moment in time, that period is looking like a halcyon time for this country. I don't recall the UK being as unpleasant and divisive a place then as it is now.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:15 pm Tuffers you do realise that the job losses have been caused by a worldwide pandemic don't you? If it had not happened we would have still been powering ahead. Still you could blame the tories for something the Chinese created.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:25 pm ha ha that's funny and you know its not correct.

We will take a no deal brexit, take all the pain at once and then bounce back like you can't believe.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:27 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:15 pm Tuffers you do realise that the job losses have been caused by a worldwide pandemic don't you? If it had not happened we would have still been powering ahead. Still you could blame the tories for something the Chinese created.

But that won’t stop people blaming the Tories. But that don’t really matter Even an idiot realises the impact of Covid globally, the costs and remedial actions to come.

In due course as the next GE approaches and this current mess has created the new normal, people will Judge Labour on whether Starmer has managed to sort out the mess left by Corbyn, dealt effectively with Momentum and consigned anti-Semitism to the dustbin of history. We live in hope rather than expectation.

Then come up with policies that are practical in terms of being achievable. True policies not the wide ranging impossible to do stuff of Corbyn.

The real fight for the next GE is a long way off. Thanks to Corbyn the Tories are untouchable right now. Like it or not it’s what we have. The Corbyn legacy will live on for years.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:32 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:27 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:15 pm Tuffers you do realise that the job losses have been caused by a worldwide pandemic don't you? If it had not happened we would have still been powering ahead. Still you could blame the tories for something the Chinese created.

But that won’t stop people blaming the Tories. But that don’t really matter Even an idiot realises the impact of Covid globally, the costs and remedial actions to come.

In due course as the next GE approaches and this current mess has created the new normal, people will Judge Labour on whether Starmer has managed to sort out the mess left by Corbyn, dealt effectively with Momentum and consigned anti-Semitism to the dustbin of history. We live in hope rather than expectation.

Then come up with policies that are practical in terms of being achievable. True policies not the wide ranging impossible to do stuff of Corbyn.

The real fight for the next GE is a long way off. Thanks to Corbyn the Tories are untouchable right now. Like it or not it’s what we have. The Corbyn legacy will live on for years.

'But that won't stop people blaming the Tories!'

And then 4 mentions of Corbyn in a completely unrelated post. You're a character.

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:15 pm Tuffers you do realise that the job losses have been caused by a worldwide pandemic don't you? If it had not happened we would have still been powering ahead. Still you could blame the tories for something the Chinese created.

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:32 pm "Labour would be 20 points ahead if it wasn't for Corbyn".

Well Corbyn's gone and they're still not getting much closer. Labour can't rely on the Tories just becoming more toxic Tuffers.

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:35 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:32 pm "Labour would be 20 points ahead if it wasn't for Corbyn".

Well Corbyn's gone and they're still not getting much closer. Labour can't rely on the Tories just becoming more toxic Tuffers.

20 points ahead


I give you Red Ed
Who lost
Then neither may or corbyn could win the election
Then Boris took brexit as the only political policy &
Swept the board. Congrats on that , but it'll cost the uk ( well britain)
For decades to come .

Thor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:59 am Created plenty of jobs, jobs that pay moneymthat allow you to live, buy a house, car holiday or whatever it is that floats your boat.

Created the highest number of people in work ever.
Created one of if no the lowest unemployed number in our history.
Record investment in the NHS
Allow councils to build homes once more
Apprenticeships
Record inward investment in to our country
Cut red tape
Education with accountability via the academy system.
Leading the climate change efforts in the world
Reduction in fuel bills through legislation
Income tax thresholds increased yearly
Low inflation
Defect was reducing and moving to surplus before this virus struck
Pension annuity scrapped
BREXIT

There's plenty more to list, but I've got a things to do.

Excellent achievement - albeit, I note that it had started falling whilst on Johnson's watch (not including the Pandemic period, obviously).

This is a wide open statement. I assume however that you aren't referring to Brexit!

Indeed - thanks to Labour's Climate Change and Sustainable Energy Act 2006 and The Climate Change Act 2008. Is Johnson however committed to Climare Change? Lest we forget although he has repeatedly called for reduced emissions, he has always demonstrated opposition to onshore wind subsidies, emissions-based vehicle taxes and carbon capture and storage. He was also shown to have declared donations of £5,000 from Michael Hintze and £25,000 from Terence Mordaunt (via First Corporate Shipping), who fund the climate science sceptic Global Warming Policy Foundation

How's Johnson's 'all-singing, all-dancing, oven-ready Brexit Deal' going?