Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:20 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:03 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:48 pm

What about the hidden loan he was given by another Labour MP to buy a house on Notting Hill that he couldn't afford?

Talking of loans, McClusky got a nice £400 k loan from unite to help him buy a flat, but he did of course pay it back Plus a bit more. Not unusual with loans. Details of the loan payback kept from the rank and file of course. The house now enjoys a massive increase in value. Wonder if he still owns it. Champagne McClusky telling others to count their gold whilst having earned a salary far greater that the vast majority of Union members can only dream about, apart from other Union leaders of course.

Don’t begrudge them the big bucks but they should stop throwing about such comments.

Tbh is was a pretty stupid thing to say.

You miss the point.

Having a hidden loan from another MP means there is potential for the lender to unduly influence the loanee. It's not a good look for a govt minister to be secretly in hock to a businessman.

Whose defending the Government? You’ve missed the point, I’m not defending anybody. Just that before McClusky throws jibes he needs to look close to home, literally.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:28 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:20 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:03 pm

Talking of loans, McClusky got a nice £400 k loan from unite to help him buy a flat, but he did of course pay it back Plus a bit more. Not unusual with loans. Details of the loan payback kept from the rank and file of course. The house now enjoys a massive increase in value. Wonder if he still owns it. Champagne McClusky telling others to count their gold whilst having earned a salary far greater that the vast majority of Union members can only dream about, apart from other Union leaders of course.

Don’t begrudge them the big bucks but they should stop throwing about such comments.

Tbh is was a pretty stupid thing to say.

You miss the point.

Having a hidden loan from another MP means there is potential for the lender to unduly influence the loanee. It's not a good look for a govt minister to be secretly in hock to a businessman.

Whose defending the Government? You’ve missed the point, I’m not defending anybody. Just that before McClusky throws jibes he needs to look close to home, literally.

I didn't say you were defending the govt. I think yet again and probably not for the last time you have missed my point.

Comparing the McLuskey situation to Mandelsons and attempting to suggest "they are all at it" is utter nonsense. The two situations are different.

I won't be replying to any more of your comments but I doubt that will stop you.

Seems McCluskey's attacks seem to be working

f*** me, this country is seriously f*cked if this ^ is correct.

Wasn’t the line that anyone but Corbyn would have a serious lead over the Tories?

And yes I’m aware of where Corbyn was polling. Still doesn’t answer the point above does it?

Admin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:35 pm f*** me, this country is seriously f*cked if this ^ is correct.

Wasn’t the line that anyone but Corbyn would have a serious lead over the Tories?

And yes I’m aware of where Corbyn was polling. Still doesn’t answer the point above does it?

Which country? I only ask because the polls are nothing like that in Wales, Scotland and the Six Counties.

Admin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:35 pm f*** me, this country is seriously f*cked if this ^ is correct.

Wasn’t the line that anyone but Corbyn would have a serious lead over the Tories?

And yes I’m aware of where Corbyn was polling. Still doesn’t answer the point above does it?

Don't think they meant the day Kier got elected we'd see an immediate 22% swing in voting intentions.

Keech Starmer Out

Anyway, how's he meant to do well when this good honourable man has got Murdoch and the Billionaire bankers and press against him and continue to smear him?

The fact people within his own movement like McCluskey won't accept the democratic mandate of the party membership just show what he's up against. They should fuc* off and join the Tories.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:11 pm Anyway, how's he meant to do well when this good honourable man has got Murdoch and the Billionaire bankers and press against him and continue to smear him?

The fact people within his own movement like McCluskey won't accept the democratic mandate of the party membership just show what he's up against. They should fuc* off and join the Tories.

What, just like the right wing rats that wouldn't accept Corbyns mandate?
People like Berger, Watson, Phillips, Smeeth, Kinnock, Hodge, etc etc.
They really accepted Corbyn, didn't they?

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:19 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:11 pm Anyway, how's he meant to do well when this good honourable man has got Murdoch and the Billionaire bankers and press against him and continue to smear him?

The fact people within his own movement like McCluskey won't accept the democratic mandate of the party membership just show what he's up against. They should fuc* off and join the Tories.

What, just like the right wing rats that wouldn't accept Corbyns mandate?
People like Berger, Watson, Phillips, Smeeth, Kinnock, Hodge, etc etc.
They really accepted Corbyn, didn't they?

Yes, I'm parodying you, well done for not noticing

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:01 pm Seems McCluskey's attacks seem to be working

Ignoring the bickering, but it’s a sorry state of affairs when diluted-Labour can’t even outpoll Johnson and this dogs dinner of a Government right now. Starmer’s gone out of his way to show no threat to the Establishment, and accordingly been given an easy ride by the usual hatchet jobs that Corbyn & Co took increasingly rabid pelters from. Maybe the public can see through his softly, softly abstentionism strategy, and aren’t so keen on his forensic intellect as the commentariat...

I think Labour as a brand are tarnished (thanks to Corbyn et al).

Starmer is winning on the "Best Prime Minister" metric, a metric the opposition usually fail on.

There's a contingent of people who won't vote Labour in the next election regardless. That's on principle because of the previous leadership.

Yes, that’s a factor. But I would expect a lower percentage than 42% to indicate they won’t back the dire Tories right now, even if that meant Libs, Greens, Nats and fringes got an uptick instead of Lab. Maybe it’s the Get Brexit Done crew sticking with Cummings puppet and slathering over a possible No Deal scenario to stick it up Jonny Foreigner, but whatever it’s a bit depressing.

Get used to it

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:50 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:58 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:48 pm

What about the hidden loan he was given by another Labour MP to buy a house on Notting Hill that he couldn't afford?

Best for you to stick to your tropes on Alex Salmond.

Best for you if you leave the Board. Don't take it too personally. Some people just aren't Boarders. You are one of them.

That’s what I thought about you when you disappeared for a few months.

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:34 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:57 am

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:23 pm Mandelson is a f*cking Lord. Surely any reference to money or gold is to do with that, not any distant relatives of his?

Possibly, but it was a pretty stupid thing for McCluskey to say given the obvious connotations wouldn’t you agree.

No. Not at all.

Oh right. Marxist Labour still stupidly shoot themselves in the foot again and don’t care about the unwanted anti-semitic attention it brings.

Let’s hope Lenny follows Jeremy out the door too.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:53 pm

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:34 pm

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:57 am

Possibly, but it was a pretty stupid thing for McCluskey to say given the obvious connotations wouldn’t you agree.

No. Not at all.

Oh right. Marxist Labour still stupidly shoot themselves in the foot again and don’t care about the unwanted anti-semitic attention it brings.

Let’s hope Lenny follows Jeremy out the door too.

Precisely. It’s embarrassing to see the idiots on here still defending the anti semities.

Why can’t people of all faiths or no faiths on here embrace the diversity of modern day London? I thought COVID 19 would bring people together but instead it’s made them
worse.

That recent poll really isn't that surprising. The Tories still position themselves as culturally right of centre, and (pretend to be (although, only just about)) economically left of centre. It's the election sweet spot. It's what the country wants. This really isn't difficult.

They will struggle to hold that position in due course, especially as the economic scarring of Covid becomes more apparent. But, as the Brexit vote demonstrated, if people have to choose between cultural and economic preferences, the cultural stuff tends to just about win.

As for SurKeir, he's probably doing the best that is possible right now. While it was always palatable for Tories to shift leftwards economically, it's unthinkable for the Labour faithful to mirror such a shift rightwards on cultural policy. And there's the dilemma and why, regardless of how awful the Boris government are, Labour are still a long way from ever achieving a Commons majority.

Don’t know about that, Dunnem. It’s true BoJo’s mob can position themselves where they want culturally and economically at GE time (and with an unprincipled charlatan like Johnson policies & soundbites can shift like the tides with bullshitting regularity) - but I was mostly referring to their staggering managerial incompetence and lies: but still 42% effectively say they don’t care about that & give them the thumbs up...

slacker wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:05 am Don’t know about that, Dunnem. It’s true BoJo’s mob can position themselves where they want culturally and economically at GE time (and with an unprincipled charlatan like Johnson policies & soundbites can shift like the tides with bullshitting regularity) - but I was mostly referring to their staggering managerial incompetence and lies: but still 42% effectively say they don’t care about that & give them the thumbs up...

It’s not necessarily a thumbs up. It’s a thumbs down to Labour.

Lots of people won’t ever vote labour. That’s the party for the immigrants and the work shy and students and gays and the metropolitan elite and so on and so on. All the things that they’re not.

^ Correct. And the carefully placed news story on sending immigrants to Ascension Island, attacks on "lefty Human rights lawyers" and today's articles on deporting homeless foreigners are all designed to land effective punches - and they do.

Plenty of people can see through Johnson. Starmer's personal ratings are very high, so it's not just the commentariat that like him. If there was a straightforward presidential-style election tomorrow, he'd probably walk it. But the question being asked in these polls is; would you vote Labour? And, irrespective of how well perceived Starmer is by the public (not just commentators), the answer to that is a resounding no.

That just shows what an effective job has been done of absolutely trashing the Labour brand. It's going to take years, a lot of effort and political manoeuvring, regardless of the degree to which the Johnson government is incompetent, to overcome that. That's going to mean Starmer will have to do/say things (or not do/say things) that will upset many on the left. And those on the left would do well to remember that and keep things in perspective (there's even idiots on this thread likening his performance to date to the rise of fascism, FFS).

If I was a Labour member, I'd be pleased with the fact Starmer has dragged Labour back to within parity for now. At no other time in history has a party come back from a defeat of the kind suffered by Labour at the past election to win at the next. We need to be realistic about what is achievable.

slacker wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:05 am ....but still 42% effectively say they don’t care about that & give them the thumbs up...

It makes sense (in a weird and horrible sort of way). In the EU referendum the Remain argument was essentially "if we leave you'll be poorer." The Leave argument was "if we leave there'll be less immigrants." 52% voted to leave.

It just shows how much weight "cultural concerns" carry over just about anything else. It's no longer about the "economy, stupid" and these latest polls suggest it's not even about our health. The electorate (including a large proportion of voters of immigrant background too) want rid of the foreigns and will forgive a government just about anything if they perceive them to be doing that.

I think there is much to criticise the Government about with Covid. But people must be given credit when they can see this pandemic is global and many countries are having a tough time too. And there is a growing awareness of what many in the population are doing to make it worse. But there is also some things that people see as good, like the financial help being dished out in an attempt to stave off the inevitable increase in job losses.

I’m pretty sure the views of many on this forum are not necessarily shared by the population at large. Hence why some can’t comprehend polls, which of course could well be wrong, in both directions.

As for Starmer, he is doing OK in my opinion. But it’s early days and all Covid and Brexit. By the time we get to the election campaign the landscape will be very different and we shall see his influence on Labour. And he won’t be blighted by anti Semitism which I have little doubt will be dealt with.

I don’t think politics right now is in a place to come to any conclusions.

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:13 pm

slacker wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:05 am ....but still 42% effectively say they don’t care about that & give them the thumbs up...

It makes sense (in a weird and horrible sort of way). In the EU referendum the Remain argument was essentially "if we leave you'll be poorer." The Leave argument was "if we leave there'll be less immigrants." 52% voted to leave.

It just shows how much weight "cultural concerns" carry over just about anything else. It's no longer about the "economy, stupid" and these latest polls suggest it's not even about our health. The electorate (including a large proportion of voters of immigrant background too) want rid of the foreigns and will forgive a government just about anything if they perceive them to be doing that.

I don't necessarily disagree with this post or the prior ones but they are all a bit too electoral politics focused.

The real struggle is in the community, the unions and on the streets. It is from there we can build a properly functioning socialist alternative.

Parliament has delivered our current conditions. It remains within the control of the ruling class at all times.