Independent Leyton Orient Forum

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:30 pm

Obviously, we wouldn’t go there to fight but can you not see the danger . We are there on the ground if things go inevitably tits up . We are dealing with a nuclear power here, not Iraq or Afghanistan and anyway, how did they both work out?

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:30 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:02 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:47 am

Ok, keep funding Ukraine then and let them fight it out to the finish . Do you think Ukraine can win this war on the battlefield ? Although they have lionhearted troops, sadly I can't . They are vastly outgunned and outmanned . That's why Zelensky is trying to drag us directly into this war and thanks to Starmer's statement yesterday he appears to be succeeding .

Where has Starmer said we're going to join in the fighting? He's said he's prepared to put peacekeeping troops on the ground after the war ends but he too wants US support for this.

Of course Zelensky would like NATO Countries to join the war but that won't happen unless Putin escalates. Putin has expansionist plans. If he takes Ukraine - and Trump/Musk has just made that much more likely to their eternal shame - then Putin will look to other states to invade. Given Trump has stated publicly and loudly that he won't support NATO then, effectively, Trump has given Putin the green light to do whatever he wants to do with Europe. Trumps part in this is disgusting and Europe - by the way we are still part of Europe let alone our commitments to NATO - will have to pay the price for Trumps duplicity and self interest. Trump, Musk and all the other billionaires will do very nicely out of all this, as they always do. In the current scenario there will likely be a high human cost as well.

Obviously, we wouldn’t go there to fight but can you not see the danger . We are there on the ground if things go inevitably tits up . We are dealing with a nuclear power here, not Iraq or Afghanistan and anyway, how did they both work out?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:44 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:58 am "Europe, together with Ukraine, has twice as many fighter jets as Russia, and in terms of the number of professional soldiers, our advantage over Russia is clear. The issue is not numbers but a lack of belief in our own strength," – observed Donald Tusk.

The Prime Minister presented data from The International Institute for Strategic Studies, showing that Europe, together with Ukraine, possesses twice as many fighter jets as Russia and has a significant advantage in the number of professional soldiers.

"The paradox is that 500 million Europeans are asking 300 million Americans to defend them against 140 million Russians. We must rely on ourselves, fully aware of our potential and with confidence that we are a global power," – emphasized the Polish Prime Minister, pointing to the need to rethink Europe’s role.

According to the presented data, Europe and Ukraine have 2.6 million professional soldiers, while Russia has 1.1 million. A similar advantage applies to combat aircraft, with 2,991 on the side of Europe and Ukraine compared to 1,224 in Russia. In terms of artillery, Europe, including Ukraine, significantly outpaces Russia, possessing 14,400 units versus Russia’s 5,157."


I wouldn't expect the Poles to back down, there is some history here.

Add in the poor state of the Russian economy compared to the capacity of Europe and its a no-brainer. Europe would win but I would be extra careful about the time of year we invade.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:49 pm

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:44 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:58 am "Europe, together with Ukraine, has twice as many fighter jets as Russia, and in terms of the number of professional soldiers, our advantage over Russia is clear. The issue is not numbers but a lack of belief in our own strength," – observed Donald Tusk.

The Prime Minister presented data from The International Institute for Strategic Studies, showing that Europe, together with Ukraine, possesses twice as many fighter jets as Russia and has a significant advantage in the number of professional soldiers.

"The paradox is that 500 million Europeans are asking 300 million Americans to defend them against 140 million Russians. We must rely on ourselves, fully aware of our potential and with confidence that we are a global power," – emphasized the Polish Prime Minister, pointing to the need to rethink Europe’s role.

According to the presented data, Europe and Ukraine have 2.6 million professional soldiers, while Russia has 1.1 million. A similar advantage applies to combat aircraft, with 2,991 on the side of Europe and Ukraine compared to 1,224 in Russia. In terms of artillery, Europe, including Ukraine, significantly outpaces Russia, possessing 14,400 units versus Russia’s 5,157."


I wouldn't expect the Poles to back down, there is some history here.

Add in the poor state of the Russian economy compared to the capacity of Europe and its a no-brainer. Europe would win but I would be extra careful about the time of year we invade.

There's also the fact that the Russians don't seem to mind throwing their conscripts into the meat-grinder whereas I'd hope our commanders would be a bit more concerned about casualties, so simple numbers of troops aren't the only measure. Desperately hope this doesn't escalate, but I really can't see that appeasement is an option. If only there was a non-lunatic in the White House the world might have a chance.

Maybe someone close to Putin will do the world a favour.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:30 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:02 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:47 am

Ok, keep funding Ukraine then and let them fight it out to the finish . Do you think Ukraine can win this war on the battlefield ? Although they have lionhearted troops, sadly I can't . They are vastly outgunned and outmanned . That's why Zelensky is trying to drag us directly into this war and thanks to Starmer's statement yesterday he appears to be succeeding .

Where has Starmer said we're going to join in the fighting? He's said he's prepared to put peacekeeping troops on the ground after the war ends but he too wants US support for this.

Of course Zelensky would like NATO Countries to join the war but that won't happen unless Putin escalates. Putin has expansionist plans. If he takes Ukraine - and Trump/Musk has just made that much more likely to their eternal shame - then Putin will look to other states to invade. Given Trump has stated publicly and loudly that he won't support NATO then, effectively, Trump has given Putin the green light to do whatever he wants to do with Europe. Trumps part in this is disgusting and Europe - by the way we are still part of Europe let alone our commitments to NATO - will have to pay the price for Trumps duplicity and self interest. Trump, Musk and all the other billionaires will do very nicely out of all this, as they always do. In the current scenario there will likely be a high human cost as well.

Obviously, we wouldn’t go there to fight but can you not see the danger . We are there on the ground if things go inevitably tits up . We are dealing with a nuclear power here, not Iraq or Afghanistan and anyway, how did they both work out?

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:21 pm Thinking about how everything has panned out in Europe since 1918, could it have been any worse had the axis powers won the first world war?

We wouldn't have had fascism, WW2 or the holocaust. The Ottomans would have kept the middle-east either in check or as their problem. We may have avoided Soviet communism. Europe wouldn't have devastated its population of young males (twice), so we may not have needed to implement mass migration policies to such a degree. Economies would not have been devastated either, so we could have achieved even greater welfare programmes and state investment. Our cities and major towns would look so much nicer.

And we may not be in this situation right now.

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:25 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:21 pm Thinking about how everything has panned out in Europe since 1918, could it have been any worse had the axis powers won the first world war?

We wouldn't have had fascism, WW2 or the holocaust. The Ottomans would have kept the middle-east either in check or as their problem. We may have avoided Soviet communism. Europe wouldn't have devastated its population of young males (twice), so we may not have needed to implement mass migration policies to such a degree. Economies would not have been devastated either, so we could have achieved even greater welfare programmes and state investment. Our cities and major towns would look so much nicer.

And we may not be in this situation right now.

Do you really think that someone, some Country, wouldn't have found some cause to start a war or two in your scenario. Nice hypothesis but no basis in reality.

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:29 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:25 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:21 pm Thinking about how everything has panned out in Europe since 1918, could it have been any worse had the axis powers won the first world war?

We wouldn't have had fascism, WW2 or the holocaust. The Ottomans would have kept the middle-east either in check or as their problem. We may have avoided Soviet communism. Europe wouldn't have devastated its population of young males (twice), so we may not have needed to implement mass migration policies to such a degree. Economies would not have been devastated either, so we could have achieved even greater welfare programmes and state investment. Our cities and major towns would look so much nicer.

And we may not be in this situation right now.

Do you really think that someone, some Country, wouldn't have found some cause to start a war or two in your scenario. Nice hypothesis but no basis in reality.

That wasn't the point. Of course they would. But would the outcome have been any worse than the one we've experienced in the last hundred years?

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:39 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:29 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:25 pm

Do you really think that someone, some Country, wouldn't have found some cause to start a war or two in your scenario. Nice hypothesis but no basis in reality.

That wasn't the point. Of course they would. But would the outcome have been any worse than the one we've experienced in the last hundred years?

I'll just pop across to the nearest parallel Universe and see.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:06 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:39 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:29 pm

That wasn't the point. Of course they would. But would the outcome have been any worse than the one we've experienced in the last hundred years?

I'll just pop across to the nearest parallel Universe and see.

I think you'll find that the nearest parallel universe is the one that's exactly the same as this one, except I haven't typed this post. To get to the one where the Kaiser won in 1918 you'll have to wade through quite a few.

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:10 pm What if he heads off in the wrong direction?

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:22 pm Why is dunnem being such a d1ck with all this nonsense talk of parallel universes and the axis of evil emerging victorious???

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:15 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:10 pm What if he heads off in the wrong direction?

Well, after an infinite number of stopovers - my light miles are really totting up - and disappear up my own black hole

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:22 pm Why is dunnem being such a d1ck???