Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:33 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:31 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:24 am I almost feel a bit sorry for Starmer over this. Almost.

Same here . He’s caught between a rock and a hard place.

No,
He's caught between & Dictator & a Cowardly money grabbing silly sausage

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:32 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:26 am I think Trump just doesnt want to pay for Ukraines war, so the easiest way he sees to stop the war is to just tell Ukraine to give up.

Long term , do you think Ukraine can win war on the battlefield .? When this subject comes up at work everybody I know has said No .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:21 am I still haven't heard what Europe's alternative to Trump's peace plan is . What is our peace plan . ? I keep thinking about Starmer's brainfart idea about sending UK troops to Ukraine . Firstly , the Russians would never agree to that and secondly , what do our troops do if fired upon . Apart from WW3, what is Starmer's plan B ?

Apparently , we're going to be leading from the front with American support . Ermm , what support. ? America has just stopped all funding to Ukraine . Without American support we won't be leading anywhere .

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:35 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:21 am I still haven't heard what Europe's alternative to Trump's peace plan is . What is our peace plan . ? I keep thinking about Starmer's brainfart idea about sending UK troops to Ukraine . Firstly , the Russians would never agree to that and secondly , what do our troops do if fired upon . Apart from WW3, what is Starmer's plan B ?

Apparently , we're going to be leading from the front with American support . Ermm , what support. ? America has just stopped all funding to Ukraine . Without American support we won't be leading anywhere .

There isn't a Trump peace plan. There is him sabotaging Ukraine to the point where it is no longer able to resist Russia's invasion.

The States can't be considered an ally anymore and European leaders are having to work out on the hoof how to disentangle themselves from 80 years of economic, political and military integration from America. The idea of America as a potential adversary has been literally inconceivable and not factored into any planning.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:32 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:26 am I think Trump just doesnt want to pay for Ukraines war, so the easiest way he sees to stop the war is to just tell Ukraine to give up.

Long term , do you think Ukraine can win war on the battlefield .? When this subject comes up at work everybody I know has said No .

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:42 am Trumps sole plan is the mineral "deal" (extortion). Vance said it yesterday - the only Security Guarantee is the mineral deal,

So Trump's plan is just - surrender. That's it. I'm not sure that's a wise move - much as I hate the idea of any sort of a hot war with our people involved, but you can't just surrender to Putin. It's not just appeasement - it's alignment with Russia.

Trump is just Putin's bitch.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:47 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:42 am Trumps sole plan is the mineral "deal" (extortion). Vance said it yesterday - the only Security Guarantee is the mineral deal,

So Trump's plan is just - surrender. That's it. I'm not sure that's a wise move - much as I hate the idea of any sort of a hot war with our people involved, but you can't just surrender to Putin. It's not just appeasement - it's alignment with Russia.

Trump is just Putin's bitch.

Ok, keep funding Ukraine then and let them fight it out to the finish . Do you think Ukraine can win this war on the battlefield ? Although they have lionhearted troops, sadly I can't . They are vastly outgunned and outmanned . That's why Zelensky is trying to drag us directly into this war and thanks to Starmer's statement yesterday he appears to be succeeding .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:35 am

Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:33 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:31 am

Same here . He’s caught between a rock and a hard place.

No,
He's caught between & Dictator & a Cowardly money grabbing silly sausage

Well , apparently his answer is to put Uk boots on the ground with the ' willing ' in Ukraine . What could possibly go wrong.

Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:52 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:35 am

Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:33 am

No,
He's caught between & Dictator & a Cowardly money grabbing silly sausage

Well , apparently his answer is to put Uk boots on the ground with the ' willing ' in Ukraine . What could possibly go wrong.

Putin & the Coward could lose

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:47 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:42 am Trumps sole plan is the mineral "deal" (extortion). Vance said it yesterday - the only Security Guarantee is the mineral deal,

So Trump's plan is just - surrender. That's it. I'm not sure that's a wise move - much as I hate the idea of any sort of a hot war with our people involved, but you can't just surrender to Putin. It's not just appeasement - it's alignment with Russia.

Trump is just Putin's bitch.

Ok, keep funding Ukraine then and let them fight it out to the finish . Do you think Ukraine can win this war on the battlefield ? Although they have lionhearted troops, sadly I can't . They are vastly outgunned and outmanned . That's why Zelensky is trying to drag us directly into this war and thanks to Starmer's statement yesterday he appears to be succeeding .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:32 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:26 am I think Trump just doesnt want to pay for Ukraines war, so the easiest way he sees to stop the war is to just tell Ukraine to give up.

Long term , do you think Ukraine can win war on the battlefield .? When this subject comes up at work everybody I know has said No .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:54 am

Bandy Legs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:52 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:35 am

Well , apparently his answer is to put Uk boots on the ground with the ' willing ' in Ukraine . What could possibly go wrong.

Putin & the Coward could lose

I think we all would , wouldn't we .? I mean , WW3 would be quite tough to survive .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:38 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:35 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:21 am I still haven't heard what Europe's alternative to Trump's peace plan is . What is our peace plan . ? I keep thinking about Starmer's brainfart idea about sending UK troops to Ukraine . Firstly , the Russians would never agree to that and secondly , what do our troops do if fired upon . Apart from WW3, what is Starmer's plan B ?

Apparently , we're going to be leading from the front with American support . Ermm , what support. ? America has just stopped all funding to Ukraine . Without American support we won't be leading anywhere .

There isn't a Trump peace plan. There is him sabotaging Ukraine to the point where it is no longer able to resist Russia's invasion.

The States can't be considered an ally anymore and European leaders are having to work out on the hoof how to disentangle themselves from 80 years of economic, political and military integration from America. The idea of America as a potential adversary has been literally inconceivable and not factored into any planning.

I thought his idea would be there would be an American presence there with American interests . It would keep Putin at bay without putting military boots on the ground . I haven't heard of a better plan for peace . I'm still waiting for Europe's idea but all I hear is crickets . It seems like Trump is fives steps ahead of Europe's politicians The only alternative is to let them both fight it out to the finish

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:47 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:42 am Trumps sole plan is the mineral "deal" (extortion). Vance said it yesterday - the only Security Guarantee is the mineral deal,

So Trump's plan is just - surrender. That's it. I'm not sure that's a wise move - much as I hate the idea of any sort of a hot war with our people involved, but you can't just surrender to Putin. It's not just appeasement - it's alignment with Russia.

Trump is just Putin's bitch.

Ok, keep funding Ukraine then and let them fight it out to the finish . Do you think Ukraine can win this war on the battlefield ? Although they have lionhearted troops, sadly I can't . They are vastly outgunned and outmanned . That's why Zelensky is trying to drag us directly into this war and thanks to Starmer's statement yesterday he appears to be succeeding .

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:58 am The most important thing is for Europe, somehow, to be as united as possible. If the European alliance further splits then things could get proper scary.

There are no longer any good options. Once Russia made the decision to further invade Ukraine, our best deal was the one we had. Everyone cough up some dough and material, and let Ukraine do the fighting and dying for us while they bleed Russia out on Ukrainian soil. We got to carry on with our lives regardless.

It was working too. Russia was making progress at a snail's pace, possible jus a few meters a day, and this was costing them 1,500 casualties per day along with having to cannibalise their own economy. They have decimated the non-ethnic Russian populations in their Asiatic territories. Russia was on course to be a spent force, and it is this that would have provided comfort and security to Europe.

But, thanks to the MAGA crew, that is now over. To be fair, the US has been signalling for years that this situation was a risk. Now that it has arrived we're witnessing European leaders scramble around to try and figure out what they do next in a geopolitical reality that will more closely resemble the 19th century but with better tech. This is going to be a steep learning curve for everyone, and painful lessons and mistakes will happen.

Fisch wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:12 pm If Europe is to re-arm to the capability it will require to keep Russia at arms length, our living standards and life expectations will plummet to east European levels in order to pay for it. As Europeans, are we ready and sufficiently united to deal with what looks like the new future?

Fisch wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:12 pm If Europe is to re-arm to the capability it will require to keep Russia at arms length, our living standards and life expectations will plummet to east European levels in order to pay for it. As Europeans, are we ready and sufficiently united to deal with what looks like the new future?

BoniO wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:02 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:47 am

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:42 am Trumps sole plan is the mineral "deal" (extortion). Vance said it yesterday - the only Security Guarantee is the mineral deal,

So Trump's plan is just - surrender. That's it. I'm not sure that's a wise move - much as I hate the idea of any sort of a hot war with our people involved, but you can't just surrender to Putin. It's not just appeasement - it's alignment with Russia.

Trump is just Putin's bitch.

Ok, keep funding Ukraine then and let them fight it out to the finish . Do you think Ukraine can win this war on the battlefield ? Although they have lionhearted troops, sadly I can't . They are vastly outgunned and outmanned . That's why Zelensky is trying to drag us directly into this war and thanks to Starmer's statement yesterday he appears to be succeeding .

Where has Starmer said we're going to join in the fighting? He's said he's prepared to put peacekeeping troops on the ground after the war ends but he too wants US support for this.

Of course Zelensky would like NATO Countries to join the war but that won't happen unless Putin escalates. Putin has expansionist plans. If he takes Ukraine - and Trump/Musk has just made that much more likely to their eternal shame - then Putin will look to other states to invade. Given Trump has stated publicly and loudly that he won't support NATO then, effectively, Trump has given Putin the green light to do whatever he wants to do with Europe. Trumps part in this is disgusting and Europe - by the way we are still part of Europe let alone our commitments to NATO - will have to pay the price for Trumps duplicity and self interest. Trump, Musk and all the other billionaires will do very nicely out of all this, as they always do. In the current scenario there will likely be a high human cost as well.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:32 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:26 am I think Trump just doesnt want to pay for Ukraines war, so the easiest way he sees to stop the war is to just tell Ukraine to give up.

Long term , do you think Ukraine can win war on the battlefield .? When this subject comes up at work everybody I know has said No .

StillSpike wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:58 am "Europe, together with Ukraine, has twice as many fighter jets as Russia, and in terms of the number of professional soldiers, our advantage over Russia is clear. The issue is not numbers but a lack of belief in our own strength," – observed Donald Tusk.

The Prime Minister presented data from The International Institute for Strategic Studies, showing that Europe, together with Ukraine, possesses twice as many fighter jets as Russia and has a significant advantage in the number of professional soldiers.

"The paradox is that 500 million Europeans are asking 300 million Americans to defend them against 140 million Russians. We must rely on ourselves, fully aware of our potential and with confidence that we are a global power," – emphasized the Polish Prime Minister, pointing to the need to rethink Europe’s role.

According to the presented data, Europe and Ukraine have 2.6 million professional soldiers, while Russia has 1.1 million. A similar advantage applies to combat aircraft, with 2,991 on the side of Europe and Ukraine compared to 1,224 in Russia. In terms of artillery, Europe, including Ukraine, significantly outpaces Russia, possessing 14,400 units versus Russia’s 5,157."


I wouldn't expect the Poles to back down, there is some history here.