Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:55 pm PO universal credit - don’t you think he premise of this is good? Fraud is cut down which has been a massive issue for the benefit system. Yes it has issues which if they iron them out and get them sorted then the reality of a one stop benefit to cover everything has to be better does it not?

It’s absolute sense to simplify systems. It’s a massive task and mistakes have been made. Not so good if you are on the wrong end of course.

Benefit Fraud is estimated a £2billion pa. though how exactly you work this out I don’t know and if Government departments estimate this themselves they will err on the low side just to avoid looking like total idiots. My guess. Double that.

But who really knows.

Now look at those that don't pay their fair share of tax. We're angry at Dave down the pub getting £50 a week he shouldn't (and I agree, it's scummy) but we're less angry about Dave down the stock exchange keeping £30million he shouldn't.

More importantly though as you state, 'not so good if you are on the wrong end of course' - who is that likely to be? Which groups?

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:59 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:55 pm PO universal credit - don’t you think he premise of this is good? Fraud is cut down which has been a massive issue for the benefit system. Yes it has issues which if they iron them out and get them sorted then the reality of a one stop benefit to cover everything has to be better does it not?

It’s absolute sense to simplify systems. It’s a massive task and mistakes have been made. Not so good if you are on the wrong end of course.

Benefit Fraud is estimated a £2billion pa. though how exactly you work this out I don’t know and if Government departments estimate this themselves they will err on the low side just to avoid looking like total idiots. My guess. Double that.

But who really knows.

Confucius wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:18 am

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:59 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:55 pm PO universal credit - don’t you think he premise of this is good? Fraud is cut down which has been a massive issue for the benefit system. Yes it has issues which if they iron them out and get them sorted then the reality of a one stop benefit to cover everything has to be better does it not?

It’s absolute sense to simplify systems. It’s a massive task and mistakes have been made. Not so good if you are on the wrong end of course.

Benefit Fraud is estimated a £2billion pa. though how exactly you work this out I don’t know and if Government departments estimate this themselves they will err on the low side just to avoid looking like total idiots. My guess. Double that.

But who really knows.

BB9BC3BC-2E53-4D1A-ABA7-B8E93EA87BD6.jpeg

If you don’t plant rice your children may die of starvation. Smart.

So Dohnut, you agree its not good to be on the receiving end of when the DWP or whoever screws up - who is that most likely to affect? Someone in a good financial position or someone in a bad financial position?

In regards to £2billion a year in benefit fraud that the country seethes at (understandably but not proportionately) we have around £16billion a year of unclaimed benefits.

Using disability assessments as an example, with £14billion being the difference in the treasury's favour, does it make sense (both ethically, logistically AND financially) to risk not paying a disabled person enough to live on healthily by archaic and cruel capability assessments - when we have so much unclaimed already? Please don't devils advocate this one for once. If a GP says a disabled person shouldn't work, should the DWP be able to override that as they currently do, or should we look at that £14billion a year and think 'you know what, we can actually make it that this person eats!'.

Those stats are from 2015/16 and are the amount overclaimed minus the amount recovered, which isn't the same as fraud. Overpayment of housing benefit accounted for about half of all the money lost, the payments going to the landlord rather than the person claiming benefits.

Of the remaining benefits the overpayment rate was estimated at just over 1%, for disability benefits (where there was the highest number of 'tip offs' by members of the public that someone might be committing fraud) it was estimated at less than 0.5%. Despite public opinion, especially amongst thickos like Thor who has repeatedly demonstrated what a thicko he is, it is in no way a 'massive issue.

Now for Dohnut to do his thing of saying lies, lies and statistics l, despite him being the person trying to use them as a basis for his argument.

That's a great, great post. But as your info points out this culture of vilifying benefit claimants and not believing disabled people has meant so many genuine people have missed out due to so few actual cases of overpayment all because its politically easy to shoot into that open goal. As the opinions on this thread proves.

Good to see the Tories are quick to remove the whip of the geezer who beat Chris Grayling (who literally doesn't know his arse from his elbow) to chair the intelligence committee but are refusing to remove it for an alleged rapist.

That just about sums up everything you need to know about the Tory party and where their priorities lie.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:18 pm Good to see the Tories are quick to remove the whip of the geezer who beat Chris Grayling (who literally doesn't know his arse from his elbow) to chair the intelligence committee but are refusing to remove it for an alleged rapist.

That just about sums up everything you need to know about the Tory party and where their priorities lie.

Indeed. The usual suspects are silent on this matter I see too.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:18 pm Good to see the Tories are quick to remove the whip of the geezer who beat Chris Grayling (who literally doesn't know his arse from his elbow) to chair the intelligence committee but are refusing to remove it for an alleged rapist.

That just about sums up everything you need to know about the Tory party and where their priorities lie.

But the alleged rapist hasn't been convicted of anything yet, whereas the bloke who beat Chris Grayling DID talk to MPs of other parties to get voted in.

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:41 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:18 pm Good to see the Tories are quick to remove the whip of the geezer who beat Chris Grayling (who literally doesn't know his arse from his elbow) to chair the intelligence committee but are refusing to remove it for an alleged rapist.

That just about sums up everything you need to know about the Tory party and where their priorities lie.

But the alleged rapist hasn't been convicted of anything yet, whereas the bloke who beat Chris Grayling DID talk to MPs of other parties to get voted in.

Come on. I'm all for not convicting people via social media and the papers.

But it's a very serious allegation. Pretty much any other job, especially in the public sector, you'd be suspended pending investigation. This person could be risk to others still and it's simply unbelievable that by the sounds of it, the top Tories have known about this for a while.

Particularly bad look given that a Tory MP was reinstated following accusations of sexual assault that were proved to be accurate. Yet somehow nearly half the country still support this party.

My son was wearing a 'Vote Conservative' T-shirt and an 'I love Boris' baseball cap. He's been spat at, abused, slapped round the head and told he's a brainless tw*t. God knows what's going to happen to him once he gets out of the house.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:03 pm Particularly bad look given that a Tory MP was reinstated following accusations of sexual assault that were proved to be accurate. Yet somehow nearly half the country still support this party.

If memory serves, that was because they needed every vote they could with one of the brexit votes? Votes over morals, despicable.

A cabinet minister lobbied the prime minister to help Charlie Elphicke after the Conservative MP was charged with sexual assault, the Guardian has been told. Questions resurfaced about the Tory party’s handling of the case last week after Elphicke was convicted of three counts of sexual assault against two women in 2007 and 2016. He is due to be sentenced later this year and could face a jail term.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... e-elphicke

Tory minister refuses to confirm whether chief whip knew of rape claims against MP. A minister has refused to confirm whether the government’s chief whip was told about claims against a Conservative MP by his alleged victim four months before he was arrested on suspicion of rape.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... against-mp



Wriggle, squirm, spout utter BS, avoid answering the actual question TWICE, squirm, wriggle, wriggle, squirm.

The Tory Party - committed to 'oven-ready' lies, sheer incompetence............and protecting their own perverts.

Nothing surprises me much these days.

Politics is full of nasty people, many who seem to get off lightly. This guy should have been suspended pending the outcome of an investigation. Then we have Mr Naughty Tory.

Worse Still, pending the rape allegation, the Exeter Labour Councillor who over a ten year period collected a million images, including children being raped and others involving animals. Gets described as a hard working man of previous good character, let off with a 10 month prison sentence suspended for two years.

The worlds gone mad

Wirh all due respect, I think you are missing the point I was making.

Whilst the Labour Councillor is obviously a disgusting individual for what he did; to the best of my knowledge, neither the Labour Party; nor indeed any senior officials or Labour M.P.'s, ever tried to protect him, did they?

The same clearly cannot be said for the Tory Party, can it.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:50 pm Nothing surprises me much these days.

Politics is full of nasty people, many who seem to get off lightly. This guy should have been suspended pending the outcome of an investigation. Then we have Mr Naughty Tory.

Worse Still, pending the rape allegation, the Exeter Labour Councillor who over a ten year period collected a million images, including children being raped and others involving animals. Gets described as a hard working man of previous good character, let off with a 10 month prison sentence suspended for two years.

The worlds gone mad

That’s comparable.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:50 pm Nothing surprises me much these days.

Politics is full of nasty people, many who seem to get off lightly. This guy should have been suspended pending the outcome of an investigation. Then we have Mr Naughty Tory.

Worse Still, pending the rape allegation, the Exeter Labour Councillor who over a ten year period collected a million images, including children being raped and others involving animals. Gets described as a hard working man of previous good character, let off with a 10 month prison sentence suspended for two years.

The worlds gone mad

I suspect you’ve brought this case up as a comparable as it involves a labour councillor. You’re about the 4th person I’ve seen do this today on social media. Each one looking to level the score as such between labour / Tory. How f*cking sad are you?

I have no idea why the person in question hasn’t been named or suspended. Regardless of my political leanings, I don’t feel the need to treat this as some type of competition between the two parties.

Take a good hard look at yourself you silly silly man.

Admin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:46 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:50 pm Nothing surprises me much these days.

Politics is full of nasty people, many who seem to get off lightly. This guy should have been suspended pending the outcome of an investigation. Then we have Mr Naughty Tory.

Worse Still, pending the rape allegation, the Exeter Labour Councillor who over a ten year period collected a million images, including children being raped and others involving animals. Gets described as a hard working man of previous good character, let off with a 10 month prison sentence suspended for two years.

The worlds gone mad

I suspect you’ve brought this case up as a comparable as it involves a labour councillor. You’re about the 4th person I’ve seen do this today on social media. Each one looking to level the score as such between labour / Tory. How f*cking sad are you?

I have no idea why the person in question hasn’t been named or suspended. Regardless of my political leanings, I don’t feel the need to treat this as some type of competition between the two parties.

Take a good hard look at yourself you silly silly man.

Really. If you do read my stuff you will see that in many things, I treat all parties with the same degree of contempt when it comes to this sort of stuff. Do you honestly believe I’m defending the Tories? If you do then it’s you who is the silly, silly man.

Let me make it clear. The Tory should have been suspended, that he hasn’t been is an absolute fecking disgrace. This is not presuming guilt or innocence but a sensible action pending investigation. The Labour Councillor should have done prison time yet is described as a man of past good character, like that makes his actions OK.

Examples of rotten apples, or to be fair in the Tory case pending investigation alledged rotten apple that exist in the political system. I don’t give a toss about the colour rosette they wear. I think it is you that is seeing this as some sort of competition, not me.

So you just picked a labour councillor (named and convicted for a completely different crime) as a suitable comparable to a conservative who as yet hasn’t been named or charged.

Righto.

(I really should remember my own advice of not engaging with you. Purely on the basis that you’re nowhere near as clever as you think you are).

Admin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:56 pm So you just picked a labour councillor (named and convicted for a completely different crime) as a suitable comparable to a conservative who as yet hasn’t been named or charged.

Righto.

(I really should remember my own advice of not engaging with you. Purely on the basis that you’re nowhere near as clever as you think you are).

I never claim to be clever. In fact I’m one of those rare people on here who is happy to admit I’m not a know-it-all. What I do detect is your obsession with defending Labour wherever possible. Whilst I accept the possibility of arseholes spanning the political spectrum. As they do in many walks of life.

My issue with the Tories is not whether the guy is guilty or not, we wait and see, but what I feel is bad form in not suspending him. Though I can only assume this is to protect his anonymity. I’m not too sure how this can be achieved once the investigation starts. Maybe best free him up from day to day duties and allow him the time to fully defend himself, like Salmond His name will out, it will be a miracle for not to at some point.

You are absolutely a know it all, despite being as thick as mince.

I’ve literally no idea why anyone would try and defend the alleged rapist Tory mp. Sick.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:18 pm My son was wearing a 'Vote Conservative' T-shirt and an 'I love Boris' baseball cap. He's been spat at, abused, slapped round the head and told he's a brainless tw*t. God knows what's going to happen to him once he gets out of the house.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:58 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:56 pm So you just picked a labour councillor (named and convicted for a completely different crime) as a suitable comparable to a conservative who as yet hasn’t been named or charged.

Righto.

(I really should remember my own advice of not engaging with you. Purely on the basis that you’re nowhere near as clever as you think you are).

I never claim to be clever. In fact I’m one of those rare people on here who is happy to admit I’m not a know-it-all. What I do detect is your obsession with defending Labour wherever possible. Whilst I accept the possibility of arseholes spanning the political spectrum. As they do in many walks of life.

My issue with the Tories is not whether the guy is guilty or not, we wait and see, but what I feel is bad form in not suspending him. Though I can only assume this is to protect his anonymity. I’m not too sure how this can be achieved once the investigation starts. Maybe best free him up from day to day duties and allow him the time to fully defend himself, like Salmond His name will out, it will be a miracle for not to at some point.

You are some piece of work.