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Good or bad?
I suspect that if public figures were opining about Covid or Ebola on World AIDS day, AIDS charities and organisations would have something to say about it being legitimate to not simply throw all disease related deaths together.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:46 am If I'd lost someone to one of the differing varieties of AIDS, I wouldn't get upset and demand you were sacked from your non-job for mentioning people who had died from other diseases on AIDS Remembrance day.
I get the point you're trying to make but I think you're rewriting the documented word again, JUST LIKE IN 1984. I think reference to the Holocaust should be fairly sacrosanct - probably a better word I could use - and is at risk of being diluted somewhat. 'Genocide' is a different thing and that's the word that Adz seemed to be picking up on here.CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:59 amI suspect that if public figures were opining about Covid or Ebola on World AIDS day, AIDS charities and organisations would have something to say about it being legitimate to not simply throw all disease related deaths together.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:46 am If I'd lost someone to one of the differing varieties of AIDS, I wouldn't get upset and demand you were sacked from your non-job for mentioning people who had died from other diseases on AIDS Remembrance day.
The point is though that you and PJ were responding to this story as if the issue was just about referring to genocides, and then as if the issue was that some people think some genocides don’t rank highly enough to be OK to mention, when the issue actually seems to be about suggesting that the meaning of an existing thing should be expanded - to which people invested in the original thing can legitimately disagree, and make a case that attempting to expand the scope of the thing is inappropriate/unacceptable
It is an over reaction.
It’s literally nothing like the gammons who spout ‘All Lives Matter’.Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:06 am It’s a very “All lives matter” approach to take to bring up other historical tragedies on Holocaust Memorial Day then gaslight and say “Well don’t they matter too” when it’s pointed out
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:23 amI get the point you're trying to make but I think you're rewriting the documented word again, JUST LIKE IN 1984. I think reference to the Holocaust should be fairly sacrosanct - probably a better word I could use - and is at risk of being diluted somewhat. 'Genocide' is a different thing and that's the word that Adz seemed to be picking up on here.CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:59 amI suspect that if public figures were opining about Covid or Ebola on World AIDS day, AIDS charities and organisations would have something to say about it being legitimate to not simply throw all disease related deaths together.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:46 am If I'd lost someone to one of the differing varieties of AIDS, I wouldn't get upset and demand you were sacked from your non-job for mentioning people who had died from other diseases on AIDS Remembrance day.
The point is though that you and PJ were responding to this story as if the issue was just about referring to genocides, and then as if the issue was that some people think some genocides don’t rank highly enough to be OK to mention, when the issue actually seems to be about suggesting that the meaning of an existing thing should be expanded - to which people invested in the original thing can legitimately disagree, and make a case that attempting to expand the scope of the thing is inappropriate/unacceptable
The dynamic of taking an existing cause/concept specifically related to one group, and suggesting that when we discuss that cause/concept we should also discuss the importance of other causes and concepts is an exact equivalent in terms of the dynamics. The only difference is the degree to which you might believe it’s legitimate to expand the scope of what should be “remembered” on that day.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:39 amIt’s literally nothing like the gammons who spout ‘All Lives Matter’.Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:06 am It’s a very “All lives matter” approach to take to bring up other historical tragedies on Holocaust Memorial Day then gaslight and say “Well don’t they matter too” when it’s pointed out
I'm not debating whether it is an overreaction.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:37 amIt is an over reaction.
People are getting more upset about others remembering the wrong dead people than they are people getting brutally murdered today.
Gaslight not the best word to use, in the contextCurrywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:06 am It’s a very “All lives matter” approach to take to bring up other historical tragedies on Holocaust Memorial Day then gaslight and say “Well don’t they matter too” when it’s pointed out
I wasn't even talking about Osamor or HMD. In my view, it really wouldn't hurt to just hold one's tongue for 24 hours and not "but what about...?" during a day to mark that specific thing. If nothing else, it's definitely a lack of judgement.CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:49 amProposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:23 amI get the point you're trying to make but I think you're rewriting the documented word again, JUST LIKE IN 1984. I think reference to the Holocaust should be fairly sacrosanct - probably a better word I could use - and is at risk of being diluted somewhat. 'Genocide' is a different thing and that's the word that Adz seemed to be picking up on here.CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:59 am
I suspect that if public figures were opining about Covid or Ebola on World AIDS day, AIDS charities and organisations would have something to say about it being legitimate to not simply throw all disease related deaths together.
The point is though that you and PJ were responding to this story as if the issue was just about referring to genocides, and then as if the issue was that some people think some genocides don’t rank highly enough to be OK to mention, when the issue actually seems to be about suggesting that the meaning of an existing thing should be expanded - to which people invested in the original thing can legitimately disagree, and make a case that attempting to expand the scope of the thing is inappropriate/unacceptable
But my understanding of it is that in a communication ostensibly about holocaust Memorial Day, she specifically sought to say “let’s also make sure we talk about THIS”, which isn’t a good example of keeping the holocaust sacrosanct
Racist gammons spouting 'What about us white folk, why don't we matter?' is nothing like remembering all acts of genocide.CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:53 amThe dynamic of taking an existing cause/concept specifically related to one group, and suggesting that when we discuss that cause/concept we should also discuss the importance of other causes and concepts is an exact equivalent in terms of the dynamics. The only difference is the degree to which you might believe it’s legitimate to expand the scope of what should be “remembered” on that day.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:39 amIt’s literally nothing like the gammons who spout ‘All Lives Matter’.Currywurst and Chips wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:06 am It’s a very “All lives matter” approach to take to bring up other historical tragedies on Holocaust Memorial Day then gaslight and say “Well don’t they matter too” when it’s pointed out
Mentioning it and continually repeating it doesn't mean there is one.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 11:37 am Isn't this the ideal time to mention the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians by the Israeli state?
Isn't this conflating 'Israel' with 'Jews'?Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 11:37 am Isn't this the ideal time to mention the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians by the Israeli state?
Its quite a broad definitionIn 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 11:41 amRacist gammons spouting 'What about us white folk, why don't we matter?' is nothing like remembering all acts of genocide.CEB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:53 amThe dynamic of taking an existing cause/concept specifically related to one group, and suggesting that when we discuss that cause/concept we should also discuss the importance of other causes and concepts is an exact equivalent in terms of the dynamics. The only difference is the degree to which you might believe it’s legitimate to expand the scope of what should be “remembered” on that day.Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:39 am
It’s literally nothing like the gammons who spout ‘All Lives Matter’.
It will come down to what degree "intent" is applicable and provable. Any war fought in a densely populated region will result in human collateral. The only way to avoid the current civilian causalities would be for Israel not to have retaliated with military force to the Oct 7 attacks.Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:12 pmIts quite a broad definitionIn 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.
That is utter and complete rubbish. Retaliation was/is possible without the need for air and missile strikes on such a scale. This is what much of the World has called for. A much more precise attack on Hamas with a much lower loss of civilian life.Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:34 pmThe only way to avoid the current civilian causalities would be for Israel not to have retaliated with military force to the Oct 7 attacks.Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:12 pmIts quite a broad definitionIn 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.