Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Things are definitely changing (and have already changed) - discussion feels possible in a way it previously didn’t, “no debate” is over - it’s probably the case that untangling policies that were introduced too enthusiastically will take a while, and there’ll be plenty of organisations that didn’t get the memo, but the cass report will be a big step imo. The investigation into Mermaids will be another (there’s been a lot of interesting developments with that side of things, and particularly with the GenderGP person)

I suspect though that because trans activism avoided actually saying what it wanted, a lot of adherents will simply quietly distance themselves from the most extreme claims

From the telegraph (can’t find it on the guardian, for some reason…)

Children who believe they are transgender may actually have mental health issues, a landmark report is set to find this week.
It is expected to advise that children are not rushed onto a path to change gender, and that they receive counselling which addresses the mental health issues they may have rather than being put on drugs.
Dr Hillary Cass, a paediatrician, will on Wednesday unveil her long-awaited review into how transgender children are supported and the medical treatment they receive.
It comes amid concern that children are being allowed to change gender in school without their parents’ knowledge or consent, and after the routine prescription of puberty blockers was banned by NHS England.
The Telegraph understands that the report will find that children who think they are trans disproportionately have mental health issues such as a difficult family situation or having suffered from abuse. They are also more likely to be neurodiverse.
Counselling to tackle issues holistically
It is expected to suggest that these children need counselling to tackle these issues holistically, rather than them automatically being put on a path to change gender.
The report is expected to warn that it is wrong to assume it is in the best interest of children who think they are trans to change gender, and urge extreme caution over the use of drugs such as puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to facilitate this, even once someone is over 18 years old.
The review is also said to express concern about a significant rise in the number of young girls wanting to become boys, and say this group needs more support.
On Monday, Downing Street said the Government would act on the basis of the report to ensure children and adolescents are kept safe.
“We have talked about the importance of children and adolescent safety and wellbeing being paramount,” the Prime Minister’s spokesman said.

“That is part of previous work such as the NHS announcement to end the routine prescription of puberty blockers, it is behind our robust and clear guidance to schools. It is categorical that social transitioning is not a neutral act and no one should be forced to use preferred pronouns or accept contested beliefs as fact.
“We’ve also said there’s more to do in this area and we will look at the review when it’s published.”
He added: “The Government has taken a number of steps in this area, recognising the effect that social transitioning can have on children and adolescents, and we’ve made clear that single sex spaces must be protected.”
The interim Cass report in 2022 said that children being allowed to socially transition in schools – changing their name and pronouns, and being allowed to use the toilet and changing rooms of the gender they identify as – was “not a neutral act”.
It also raised concerns about the NHS’s gender identity and development service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS trust in London.

Many complex reasons to change gender

The interim review led NHS England to close Tavistock service and replace it with regional centres that take a more “holistic” approach to treatment and look at other mental health or medical issues they may have.
Dr Cass’s final report is expected to conclude that there could be many complex reasons a child may think they are in the wrong gender.
It is believed to advise therapists that children presenting as trans may have had other complex issues such as a difficult family situation, having suffered from abuse, or having been exposed to pornography too early.
For this reason, cases need to be judged holistically.
The review is also believed to conclude that if you allow a very young child to socially transition they are more likely to grow up to have a fixed trans identity later in life, rather than their gender distress being resolved by other means.
Dr Cass’s report is understood to say that prepubescent children should not be put on the same “pathway” as older adolescents who wish to identify as the opposite gender.
‘Psychological repercussions’
It is expected to warn that children may experience “psychological” repercussions as a result of being allowed to change their name and pronoun to the gender of their choice.
Last month, the NHS announced an immediate ban on prescribing puberty blockers to under-18s unless they are part of a clinical trial. Ministers said the “landmark decision” was in children’s “best interests” and would help to ensure youngsters who feel their gender is not the same as their sex are treated using medical evidence.
However, campaigners have warned of a loophole, as there is nothing to stop transgender children getting hold of puberty blockers from private clinics.
In 2021-22, the NHS reported more than 5,000 referrals to Tavistock, up from just under 250 who were questioning their gender a decade earlier.

Found this a good read on what went wrong at Tavistock and GIDS.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/h ... ock-centre

Still feel a lot of sympathy for the non activist trans people who are getting caught up in a very toxic debate, where both sides on the extreme seem comfortable being complete arses for political gain. But will admit that I signed up to a lot of the received wisdom that other people who saw themselves as liberal espoused without really asking any questions. The treatment of kids identifying as possibly gender dysmorphic sounds extraordinarily irresponsible, even if it was largely done with good intentions and as a result of there being nowhere near enough resources in place.

To think Roisin Murphy got absolute pelters as recently as last year for offering a view that is basically the NHS's.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 3:58 pm Found this a good read on what went wrong at Tavistock and GIDS.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/h ... ock-centre

Still feel a lot of sympathy for the non activist trans people who are getting caught up in a very toxic debate, where both sides on the extreme seem comfortable being complete arses for political gain. But will admit that I signed up to a lot of the received wisdom that other people who saw themselves as liberal espoused without really asking any questions. The treatment of kids identifying as possibly gender dysmorphic sounds extraordinarily irresponsible, even if it was largely done with good intentions and as a result of there being nowhere near enough resources in place.

Can you give an example of an extreme position espoused by a left wing opponent of the mainstream form of trans activism?

I say this not to be facetious, but to maintain that the “toxic debate” is a falsehood. The debate, in this country, could and should have been a debate held in progressive terms about how society can best accommodate people with gender dysphoria.

The toxicity has emerged from the fact that trans activism (demonstrably) decided to cast all opposition as rooted in hatred, and kept its goals as quiet as possible on the grounds that their goals aren’t popular (also demonstrable)

The far right has (as many left wing people predicted years in advance) jumped on it as an easy win, and so when the debate got into the public eye, it was cast by those organisations who had bought into trans activism as “bigots Vs kind rainbow glittery nice people!”, but in reality, in policy, in healthcare, in basically every aspect of this debate, it’s the viewpoints I’ve expressed stridently here that have won out, and I don’t hold any extreme view on this (unless you count my eventual decision that I will no longer use incorrect sex pronouns for anybody, which was a decision i reached due to what I perceived as the inherent misogyny of trans activism)

Re: Roisin - further to Caca’s question, the arts and music is one area where this ideology is still pervasive, and plenty of creative people will not be free to criticise trans activism for a very long time, if at all. Believe it or not, I’m writing a graphic novel (on a completely different subject, and it’s taking a LONG time to get anywhere with it) and I know for a fact that there’s no way whatsoever that (however good or bad it is) there’s no way it’d be published I’d the writer is a known TERF

I’d disagree with “good intentions” though; the trans rights movement *needs* “trans children” to exist, to justify the idea that their trans identity is an indisputable fact about them.

Middle aged heterosexual male people who call themselves lesbians, advocating for the idea that feminine male children are actually girls, are doing so not out of concern for a cohort they were never part of, but to legitimise their own entitlement as adults.

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:08 pm there’s no way it’d be published I’d the writer is a known TERF

What pseudonym are you going to use?

Either

Brian Whitehouse
Robert Galbraith
Ru Paul
or
R.E.V

“are doing so not out of concern for a cohort they were never part of, but to legitimise their own entitlement as adults.”

This probably needs a bit of expanding on.

I say this not because I don’t think that either individual men who think they’re women don’t genuinely believe that children possess a thing akin to a “gendered soul”, but because it’s central to trans activism, and systemic in trans organisations, that “trans children” “know who they are”, and that a direct line is drawn from those “trans children” to “trans adults” despite no evidence that one cohort usually grows up into the other, and that trans activism opposes any evidence based analysis into the phenomenon of “trans children”

https://archive.is/2024.04.09-110508/ht ... by-adults/

Also good. Suzanne Moore who was forced out of the guardian

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:11 pm I’d disagree with “good intentions” though; the trans rights movement *needs* “trans children” to exist, to justify the idea that their trans identity is an indisputable fact about them.

Middle aged heterosexual male people who call themselves lesbians, advocating for the idea that feminine male children are actually girls, are doing so not out of concern for a cohort they were never part of, but to legitimise their own entitlement as adults.

I was referring to the medical professionals * involved at the Tavistock having good intentions but being absolutely swamped by referrals, lack of precedent to draw upon due to the novelty of the subject area, and absence of a robust infrastructure to pick up any concerns being raised. Not talking about the likes of Mermaids, who seem to have tried to capitalise on that mess to push their own agenda.

Not sure I'm convinced organisations like theirs have had much actual influence in terms of how these kids have been treated clinically on a case by case basis but would accept that they have contributed to a cultural climate in which denying blockers or disparaging non medical intervention is seen as transphobic or abusive. Which obviously then has an impact on how Tavistock has operated.

* Do mean the majority, not all. The number of gids staff going to Gender Plus feels off and

It wasn’t just the absence of a robust infrastructure - staff who questioned the affirmation approach were demonised, ostracised, harassed and forced out.

As for Mermaids - they literally coached families and children into what to say to get past the initial gate keeping, and were massive proponents of the “better a live daughter than a dead son” scaremongering that got terrified parents on board.

A question I’m interested in the answer to, if you’re game - you hint at an evolution of views, but I’d be interested to know a view you previously held, but no longer do? I’m particularly interested in whether there’s anything specific you’ve changed your mind on (eg from “puberty blockers are a good thing” to “on second thoughts, maybe not”), or whether it’s more that you assumed the objections to trans activism were hyperbole, and have gradually realised that trans activism really does make assertions that are indefensible?

There's going to be some patents who, when they realise what they've done to their kids, will be destroyed by guilt (assuming they don't double-down as a defensive measure).

Doubling down is likely

Almost for certain. It's either that or admit you're such a f*ckhead that you actually believed these loons and willfully submitted your son to castration. That could send some people way over the edge.

Still, at least they/them will be in good company in the (tr)animal kingdom.

Additionally - when you consider that there’ll soon be a group of adults with very little sexual function, no fertility, and mutilated genitals and secondary sex characteristics, the drive by Stonewall to raise awareness of “Aces” becomes less “lol whatever next” and more “these arseholes are covering their backs and providing another special identity for those who get f*cked over by their current one”

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:53 pm Almost for certain. It's either that or admit you're such a f*ckhead that you actually believed these loons and willfully submitted your son to castration. That could send some people way over the edge.

Still, at least they/them will be in good company in the (tr)animal kingdom.

They’re not loons though - they’ve just been convinced by ideologues who were granted too much power and authority.
He won’t welcome the observation but RTW on here exemplifies the well meaning but ultimately naive take that many parents will have found themselves holding. He was (is?) convinced there’s more to it then there appears, because he can’t countenance that trans activism is as bad as it sounds.

I think that without trans activism’s prominence in progressive media, RTW would have no problem with this statement:

“If your child has reached a belief that they are actually the opposite sex, it’s important to try to find out how and why they’ve reached that belief, and it’s OK to know that the best outcome is that the child reconciled with their body, and is reassured by adults that there is no need to change that body”

I suspect he still generally thinks that that’s OK - it’s just that he assumes there must be *something* that trans activism/organisations know that makes it morally imperative to see some children as actually being “trans”

It’s been a very successful con

That’s where I was taking the discussion with RTW a couple of months ago. I’d genuinely be interested to know what his response would be - in the moment and over the next few weeks/months - if a child he was responsible for claimed to believe themselves to actually be a member of the opposite sex? (however it was phrased)

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:32 pm That’s where I was taking the discussion with RTW a couple of months ago. I’d genuinely be interested to know what his response would be - in the moment and over the next few weeks/months - if a child he was responsible for claimed to believe themselves to actually be a member of the opposite sex? (however it was phrased)

What would do?

Why don’t you give your sincere take on an answer to this and we’ll see how you get on?

CEB wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:05 pm Why don’t you give your sincere take on an answer to this and we’ll see how you get on?

I'm asking you.

You’re asking me for my answer, or for what would be an acceptable answer?
Happy to give you the first. The second is a no from me, because I don’t have an “acceptable” answer in mind, I have a curiosity about how someone well meaning, sort of aware of the context, but still somewhat influenced by the “progressive consensus” on this would answer.

Let me know which and I’ll do what I can x

Your answer would be fine.

Genuinely bizarre that you think I wouldn’t be able to give you a simple, truthful and substantial answer. You really haven’t been keeping up.

Meanwhile

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home ... al-report/