Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:07 am
No, I don't think he does either - but it starts to erode the whole 'you must win the centre' thing. The UK could have a progressive alliance and it would be much better for it.
Independent Leyton Orient Forum
The Unofficial and Independent Leyton Orient Message Board
https://lofcforum.com/forum1/phpBB3/
Labour Watch
Page 82 of 253
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:33 am
Oh absolutely.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:01 am
Have little interest in PR though if it happened wouldn’t get too excited either way.
People can have progressive alliances, set up their own parties or what ever. It’s a free country. But the fact remains, right now to get elected as a Government you have to win over the moderate majority. That’s the way it is. Maybe not what some like.
Out of interest I revisited Labours recent report. Their figures on a 0 to 10 scale, 0 being far left, 10 being far right
5 middle ground. 22%
456 middle with moderate preference either side increased to 42%
34567 middle with maybe stronger preferences either side increase to 68%
Extreme left or right 8%
What this suggests to me is that the real battle ground remains largely either side of the centre ground. As you get to the extremities people won’t change. But there is massive volatility in the middle, something the Labour report itself recognises. We live in a world where an increasing number of people, like me, have no party loyalty and vote according to the current party competence.
A party with apparent extreme views will never get elected. That’s just the way it is.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:53 am
I'd suggest you have a look into PR. It sounds right up your street as someone that doesn't care for party politics and wants to hear all sides of the story.Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:01 amHave little interest in PR though if it happened wouldn’t get too excited either way.
People can have progressive alliances, set up their own parties or what ever. It’s a free country. But the fact remains, right now to get elected as a Government you have to win over the moderate majority. That’s the way it is. Maybe not what some like.
Out of interest I revisited Labours recent report. Their figures on a 0 to 10 scale, 0 being far left, 10 being far right
5 middle ground. 22%
456 middle with moderate preference either side increased to 42%
34567 middle with maybe stronger preferences either side increase to 68%
Extreme left or right 8%
What this suggests to me is that the real battle ground remains largely either side of the centre ground. As you get to the extremities people won’t change. But there is massive volatility in the middle, something the Labour report itself recognises. We live in a world where an increasing number of people, like me, have no party loyalty and vote according to the current party competence.
A party with apparent extreme views will never get elected. That’s just the way it is.
Its not that I disagree with the whole 'win the majority' thing, obviously. It is that I don't think many really truly understand what it is. Much like extreme this or hard that. It's often wrong. Labour under Corbyn were called extreme/hard left more than the Conservatives were called extreme/hard right. Neither are really true and that is why I said previously it is frustrating people vote on an idea of what they think is extreme, or are told is extreme, when it isn't. See also; socialist, marxist, 'bringing us back to the 70's', 'out of touch', far right, fascist etc. All of these get used without real understanding.
Labour under Corbyn were not far left. They were more left than under Starmer though. Making out people are extremists is simply a tactic to tarnish. Using Corbyn, who I know you weren't a fan of, as an example - which of his policies did you find extreme left in 2020 terms?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:00 am
Also out of interest, the competency thing - does that trump ideology for you every time?
I.e say if the Socialist Workers Party or the BNP were the most competent organisations, would you vote for either of them?
I.e say if the Socialist Workers Party or the BNP were the most competent organisations, would you vote for either of them?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:11 pm
I just listen to what is said and take a view on the persons ability to get it done. This was Corbyns biggest weakness for me. I liked much of what he spoke about but in offering such a wide range of ideas I had to wonder whether he could actually get these things done. I think it is widely accepted within Labour Party ranks that the real message from Labour at the last election became unclear, diluted.
But I have to say that to me sums up Corbyn, long on rhetoric but short on achievement,
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:48 pm
So if Starmer, whom I believe you are more complimentary of, ran the Socialist Workers Party and you felt he'd get the job done of taking us very far left, you'd be on board, in spite of the fact you are a centrist?
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:15 pm
So you liked his policies, but voted for another party and their ultimately different policies because you didn't think Corbyn could deliver the policies you liked?Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:11 pmI just listen to what is said and take a view on the persons ability to get it done. This was Corbyns biggest weakness for me. I liked much of what he spoke about but in offering such a wide range of ideas I had to wonder whether he could actually get these things done. I think it is widely accepted within Labour Party ranks that the real message from Labour at the last election became unclear, diluted.
But I have to say that to me sums up Corbyn, long on rhetoric but short on achievement,
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:36 pm
inb4 the 'got to be realistic! No point in good policies if they aint getting done' reply to say to DohO (and others); surely ideology has to be a big part of the decision making process and if we admit that, maybe we need to admit that we are viewing competency through confirmation bias.
I'm not a hypocrite here either, I'm well aware my anti-Tory stance means I have to be careful not to dismiss everything they say just because. It's difficult sometimes, but not worth anyone tying themselves up in knots over pretending it was about something it wasn't.
I'm not a hypocrite here either, I'm well aware my anti-Tory stance means I have to be careful not to dismiss everything they say just because. It's difficult sometimes, but not worth anyone tying themselves up in knots over pretending it was about something it wasn't.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:48 pm
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:01 pm
He's socially liberal, and believes in the rule of law and balance between state intervention, free markets and individualism (in my opinion).
There's far worse worse things he could be.
There's far worse worse things he could be.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:18 pm
Never quite get to grips with this right or left. To some I probably look right wing, whereas I see myself as left of centre. I guess it’s based on your starting position. I’m very much to the right of the far left. Thatcher and Blair are my two favourite leaders, right people at the right time. The polls suggest I wasn’t alone.
But tbh these days I don’t much care. I just go with whomever I feel is the best ( and that don’t mean good ) for the country. Like last time. Boris was the best of a bad set of options.
I hope Starmer proves his worth. We desperately need a strong opposition, Corbyn/Labour infighting never really were. Then potentially a serious challenge at the polls. Time will tell, right now he has to fix the clusterfeck that is Labour.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:27 pm
Interesting. There is a scale that reads
Marxist
Socialist
Liberal (not the party)
Conservative
Facist
I definitely put myself in the liberal with socialist tendencies range. I believe the tendency these days is a move to the centre with people, flipping either side of that largely based on the strength and opinions of the leadership.
The days of the cloth cap Labour diehards has long since gone. Labour has to appeal to a much broader range of people who are likely to be home owning, hard working, tax paying, car driving, foreign holiday loving people. They don’t. Well not in sufficient numbers to get elected.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:30 pm
It's also fair to give voters some credit for wanting to weight their voting intentions by perceptions (rightly or wrongly) of competence, as opposed to ideology. As we leave the EU and navigate uncharted territories in a world where geopolitics is going through huge changes, it's reasonable to vote for whoever you think is least likely to make a complete dog's dinner of things, even if that means voting for things you do not support.
Voters can be forgiven for drawing conclusions based upon how both mainstream parties managed their own election campaigns. Irrespective of anyone feelings towards the Tories, there can be no denying that they were ruthlessly effective and Labour were a shambles.
I have no idea how much of an issue this was in the final result, or course.
Voters can be forgiven for drawing conclusions based upon how both mainstream parties managed their own election campaigns. Irrespective of anyone feelings towards the Tories, there can be no denying that they were ruthlessly effective and Labour were a shambles.
I have no idea how much of an issue this was in the final result, or course.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:42 pm
Think you're being very kind in your assessments there! But respect your opinion.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:50 pm
The Tories certainly altered perceptions, remember more than 70% of their material was found to be factually incorrect in some way and their videos even more deceptive.
Mikero
Mikero
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:51 pm
We need to be kind on our assessment of the current political nightmare that run our country. I have to admit Ive rarely been more dissolutioned with the choice us voters have. Rock and a hard place stuff.
We are crying out for a true, visionary leader. What we got was Corbyn and Johnson. Scraping the barrel don’t do them justice, they were not even in the barrel.
Corbyn was just not a leader, Johnson a blubbering buffoon.
Still, we live in hope.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:52 pm
Many people voted for Johnsons' "all-singing, all-dancing, oven-ready Brexit Deal". I'm pretty certain that's why we got beat at the last election. If I can be critical of Jeremy Corbyn for anything, it's for his flip-flopping over Brexit.
Of course, this promised "all-singing, all-dancing, oven-ready Brexit Deal" was going to be fully cooked and ready to serve by the end of July, wasn't it Mr. Johnson?
More lies........or just another abject failure Mr. Johnson?
With two days left until the end of the month, would any Tory voter, Brexiteer (or both) care to let us know how things are going? Mr. Johnson appears to have gone somewhat quiet on this issue.
Oh......here we are........it's all going so well afterall:
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/10/bori ... baked-lie/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.u ... 21349/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ngredients
Of course, this promised "all-singing, all-dancing, oven-ready Brexit Deal" was going to be fully cooked and ready to serve by the end of July, wasn't it Mr. Johnson?
More lies........or just another abject failure Mr. Johnson?
With two days left until the end of the month, would any Tory voter, Brexiteer (or both) care to let us know how things are going? Mr. Johnson appears to have gone somewhat quiet on this issue.
Oh......here we are........it's all going so well afterall:
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/10/bori ... baked-lie/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.u ... 21349/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ngredients
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:53 pm
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:03 pm
I appreciate your passion NuneatonO but including links like this, full of axe to grind stuff, don’t really work. I didn’t vote for any sort of all singing all dancing oven ready solution. Everybody knows that won’t happen. Especially after years of crap under May. This sort of stuff is just nonsense.NuneatonO's wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:52 pm Many people voted for Johnsons' "all-singing, all-dancing, oven-ready Brexit Deal". I'm pretty certain that's why we got beat at the last election. If I can be critical of Jeremy Corbyn for anything, it's for his flip-flopping over Brexit.
Of course, this promised "all-singing, all-dancing, oven-ready Brexit Deal" was going to be fully cooked and ready to serve by the end of July, wasn't it Mr. Johnson?
More lies........or just another abject failure Mr. Johnson?
With two days left until the end of the month, would any Tory voter, Brexiteer (or both) care to let us know how things are going? Mr. Johnson appears to have gone somewhat quiet on this issue.
Oh......here we are........it's all going so well afterall:
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/10/bori ... baked-lie/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.u ... 21349/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ngredients
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:05 pm
Only a total bell end would try and say they’re all the same. They’re not.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... misleading
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:25 pm
That’s not what I said, nor was I limiting it to adds. Nor do I believe journalists are 100% impartial, Owen Jones for example. Or in this case a claim from a Labour front bencher.RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:05 pmOnly a total bell end would try and say they’re all the same. They’re not.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... misleading
Interestingly the zero lies from Labour was later updated to 7%. QED
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:59 pm
It is, but again the whole 'they are all liars like each other' thing doesn't really hold water when the gov's number was 88% and the opposition was 7%. You're right if you think they both have mislead too much, but its not the same.
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:40 pm
Exactly, 7% v 88%.Dohnut wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:25 pmThat’s not what I said, nor was I limiting it to adds. Nor do I believe journalists are 100% impartial, Owen Jones for example. Or in this case a claim from a Labour front bencher.RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:05 pmOnly a total bell end would try and say they’re all the same. They’re not.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... misleading
Interestingly the zero lies from Labour was later updated to 7%. QED
Re: Labour Watch
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:43 pm