Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:22 pm Southgate has objectively been a good England manager up until this point. He's our second best ever behind Ramsey. Venables did a single home tournament and didn't get as far as Southgate did in 2021.

Venables was given one tournament and reached the semi final. We've had 8 years of winning nothing with Southgate. I find it a tad ironic that Southgate is lauded for making a final which Venables didn't, when it was Southgate missing a penalty that stopped Venables getting there.

Guaranteed there is a generation of people in their 20s/30s who will wang about how good Southgate was in 2 decades time. The thing that happened in the past is always better than the thing that is recent. He'd be crucified if he was getting the results Bobby Robson got and still allowed to remain in the job.

Southgate is a superb motivator. Managing the squads mood is obviously what he is best at, he's consistently gotten excellent tournament runs from a country that was flubbing every single tournament it entered for decades. But he's obviously not a tactical mastermind.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:24 pm Southgate is a superb motivator.

Are you having a laugh? There is no sense judging current mangers on the performance of previous managers with different players. The question is, is Southgate motivating and getting the best out of the players he has available. You've just watched the Iceland, Serbia, and Denmark matches, and you seriously think he is ?

The idea that what's gone wrong is that the players just aren't up for it is incredibly reductive. If they weren't motivated, we would've fully thrown in the towel and given up when under pressure. Southgate has consistently gotten the vibes part of being England manager spot on, the players clearly really like him and turning up for England now, which wasn't the case through the 2000s and most of the 2010s.

What's gone wrong has been abysmal tactics. You can't just put a passion merchant in charge who jumps around the sidelines like a madman geeing everyone up.

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:23 pm I find it a tad ironic that Southgate is lauded for making a final which Venables didn't, when it was Southgate missing a penalty that stopped Venables getting there.

That he did it on purpose and was playing the long game to future proof him from comparison with previous managers is the best conspiracy theory I've heard in ages, amazing.

Brigs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:41 pm Southgate is way better than Venables.

What??? Sort yourself please.

Monkey Boy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:52 pm

Brigs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:41 pm Southgate is way better than Venables.

What??? Sort yourself please.

Venables managed to take us to a Semi final at Home.Southgate took us to Final at Home.
Are you denying a Final is better than a semi final?

This thing where they count down to kick-off can f*ck right off.

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:23 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:22 pm Southgate has objectively been a good England manager up until this point. He's our second best ever behind Ramsey. Venables did a single home tournament and didn't get as far as Southgate did in 2021.

Venables was given one tournament and reached the semi final. We've had 8 years of winning nothing with Southgate. I find it a tad ironic that Southgate is lauded for making a final which Venables didn't, when it was Southgate missing a penalty that stopped Venables getting there.

Did/Didn't something happen after the tournament between Venables/The FA; which ended up with him throwing his toys and refusing to sign?
I'm sure I recall something like that but not 100%....

I haven't the godawfull "Engerland band" - have they finally done the decent thing?

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:31 pm

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:23 pm

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:22 pm Southgate has objectively been a good England manager up until this point. He's our second best ever behind Ramsey. Venables did a single home tournament and didn't get as far as Southgate did in 2021.

Venables was given one tournament and reached the semi final. We've had 8 years of winning nothing with Southgate. I find it a tad ironic that Southgate is lauded for making a final which Venables didn't, when it was Southgate missing a penalty that stopped Venables getting there.

Did/Didn't something happen after the tournament between Venables/The FA; which ended up with him throwing his toys and refusing to sign?
I'm sure I recall something like that but not 100%....

Correct, Venables did not leave England for footballing reasons, ignoring penalties he only lost 1 England game, unlike Southgate who has lost 16. In January 1996, Venables announced he would be standing down as England coach after Euro 96 because of court cases due to be heard later in the year which he felt would interfere with the national side’s efforts to qualify for the 1998 World Cup.

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:09 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:31 pm

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:23 pm

Venables was given one tournament and reached the semi final. We've had 8 years of winning nothing with Southgate. I find it a tad ironic that Southgate is lauded for making a final which Venables didn't, when it was Southgate missing a penalty that stopped Venables getting there.

Did/Didn't something happen after the tournament between Venables/The FA; which ended up with him throwing his toys and refusing to sign?
I'm sure I recall something like that but not 100%....

Correct, Venables did not leave England for footballing reasons, ignoring penalties he only lost 1 England game, unlike Southgate who has lost 16. In January 1996, Venables announced he would be standing down as England coach after Euro 96 because of court cases due to be heard later in the year which he felt would interfere with the national side’s efforts to qualify for the 1998 World Cup.

Alf Ramsey lost 17 games as England manager
He got to a final more than Venables & won that Final.

..and he made Ipswich Town champions of division one.

Ah Bobby Robson
Also got to a world cup semi final like Gareth & lost.

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:09 pm

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:31 pm

Chelmsford Swimmer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 1:23 pm

Venables was given one tournament and reached the semi final. We've had 8 years of winning nothing with Southgate. I find it a tad ironic that Southgate is lauded for making a final which Venables didn't, when it was Southgate missing a penalty that stopped Venables getting there.

Did/Didn't something happen after the tournament between Venables/The FA; which ended up with him throwing his toys and refusing to sign?
I'm sure I recall something like that but not 100%....

Correct, Venables did not leave England for footballing reasons, ignoring penalties he only lost 1 England game, unlike Southgate who has lost 16. In January 1996, Venables announced he would be standing down as England coach after Euro 96 because of court cases due to be heard later in the year which he felt would interfere with the national side’s efforts to qualify for the 1998 World Cup.

Your views are useless. Tournament football is much harder than any other international games. Venables managed England in one tournament, Gareth in 4 now. And guess what Southgate’s winning % is 13 percentage points higher than Terrys. There’s literally no comparison

Although slightly worrying from comments that the players aren’t fit enough to execute the press. First time I remember him blaming players for failings. Maybe it’s what he needs to do. But he also has lots of options and needs to make some tough choices.

As much as I love saka I’d play Gordon Kane and Foden on the right or bring in one of the other wingers with Palmer in the 10, Jude in the 8 and Rice in the 6. Or even bring Mainoo in who lacks experience but has tons of energy and might boost our intensity. Either way I’d expect him to make the right changes

He sounds frayed in the interviews he's doing. Something feels very off with the messaging from him and the players, in a way that didn't after we had comparable moments against Scotland and the US at the last two tournaments. He doesn't sound confident in what he's doing and it's obvious he doesn't have a clear sense of how he wants the team to play, which is filtering through to the players.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 11:26 am He sounds frayed in the interviews he's doing. Something feels very off with the messaging from him and the players, in a way that didn't after we had comparable moments against Scotland and the US at the last two tournaments. He doesn't sound confident in what he's doing and it's obvious he doesn't have a clear sense of how he wants the team to play, which is filtering through to the players.

That last sentence describes how things have been for ages.
Kevin Keegan openly admitted he was out of his depth, just wish Southgate would and go.

Nothing fake about this

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 3:57 pm Nothing fake about this

Just watching Belgium win against Rumania and Kevin de Bruyne is playing as though his life depends on his team winning.
Fantastic effort and passion and working so hard , setting a great example………..compare this to some of the England players on show against Denmark on Thursday

Cheshunto wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:56 pm Just watching Belgium win against Rumania and Kevin de Bruyne is playing as though his life depends on his team winning.
Fantastic effort and passion and working so hard , setting a great example………..compare this to some of the England players on show against Denmark on Thursday

Indeed . What made me laugh was the route one goal .

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:12 pm

Cheshunto wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:56 pm Just watching Belgium win against Rumania and Kevin de Bruyne is playing as though his life depends on his team winning.
Fantastic effort and passion and working so hard , setting a great example………..compare this to some of the England players on show against Denmark on Thursday

Indeed . What made me laugh was the route one goal .

Don't expect to see Kev bursting through like that.
Good game to watch, surprised not to see Courtois in goal for Belgium.

A plague on the houses of all those complicit in the decision to hold a major international football tournament in Qatar.

I've speed read this thread so forgive me if I'm duplicating anything. Venables was special and produced what nobody before him could. Robson got us to the Italia 90 semi's but in truth we were dire and it needed a bit of a player power revolution to change things around. We drew our way through the group stage. After Venables we spent almost 20 years stumbling our way through the dark, but at about the 12 year mark the FA did a great thing and Southgate led the grassroots review into football. Because of the failure of a couple of expensive foreigners - and then Big at Sam's farce - Southgate stepped in and has been EXACTLY what we needed. Players turn up because they want to be involved in a way that none had before in the premier league era. He managed to get a reasonable spin out of willing players and on a couple of occasions we've had "if only" moments.

Within all of that, we have all known that tactically he's not the sharpest tool in the box and football has moved on from 2016. That's Pep's fault (in part). Southgate is old school by comparison - even Ritchie Wellens is sharper tactically - and now is the time for him to step aside. He should not be burned at the stake for any failure to win things, but thanked for restoring national pride in our team. God only knows who can continue this feeling but Southgate's time is done.

As an aside, Southgate having mapped out the future of grassroots / youth football has helped produce a vibrant product in England. Instead of taking an ill-fated job at Man U or somewhere similar, he should get a very senior job in managing our game. Make him head of the FA - or the independent regulator that has been talked about. He cares about our game and its showed from the moment he missed that penalty in '96.