Independent Leyton Orient Forum

It sounds like we should just have a war with Iran.

Might as well.

I would be interested to hear from the Pro Palestinians amongst this group what they have to say on a Human Rights basis about:

https://tinyurl.com/yunjgdfd

1. The existence per se of these tunnels
2. The building of them next to or under civilian facilities, eg schools and hospitals - seemingly creating a situation of using the civilians as hostages.

Propaganda wise, it was a master stroke by Hamas as it means either Israel are portrayed in a bad light if they go into destroy these facilities, and if Israel do not go in Hamas can continue to operate and launch terror attacks on Israel with impunity

I'd rather hear from any Anti Palestinians amongst this group and why they're against Palestine?

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:24 am I'd rather hear from any Anti Palestinians amongst this group and why they're against Palestine?

Strange that, not prepared to discuss the actions of Hamas?

Trying to turn a serious question about one part of the situation into what abouterry


Also, not sure anyone on here is anti-Palestinian. Plenty are against terrorists like Hamas. That does not mean they are anti Palestinian, unless bizarrely you are suggesting all Palestinians are Hamas. I am not sure I know anyone who suggests all Palestinians are Hamas

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:24 am I'd rather hear from any Anti Palestinians amongst this group and why they're against Palestine?

Is that what the current Israel/Gaza conflict is to you - a question of "whose side you're on"?

Israel has the guns, the machinery and the military personnel. As Hamas is not stupid, it will have been busy preparing for this and devising ways to mitigate the Israeli advantage. The tunnels are an effective way for Hamas to neutralise the numerical, material, and tactical advantage of the Israeli military forces. And, when the entrances are bombed next to civilian infrastructure, the inevitable death toll will also be used as a propaganda tool.

If we can believe the death toll. Is it verified?

faldO wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:44 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:24 am I'd rather hear from any Anti Palestinians amongst this group and why they're against Palestine?

Is that what the current Israel/Gaza conflict is to you - a question of "whose side you're on"?

Spens question - asking for those Pro Palestine to comment - made it exactly that. But you haven't pulled him up on that? Strange.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:05 pm If we can believe the death toll. Is it verified?

No idea, but I doubt there will ever be an independently verified number. But I think everyone will agree that there will have been many civilian deaths so far. And there comes a point in any war when knowing the precise number ceases to be a priority.

Yes, Hamas will happily use the local civilians as a propaganda tool. But that was always going to happen as it's one of the tools at their disposal and when you're at war you'll do whatever it takes to not lose. Hamas knew when they launched the 7th October attacks that there was almost certainly going to be severe reprisals. The wanted Israel to come in and bomb the f*ck out of Gaza. They want dead and mutilated Palestinians being capture on camera phones and broadcast around the world.

This was the trap that they, and their backers, laid for Israel, as it is intended to de-legitimise the Israeli state in the court of public opinion around the world. Israel has walked right into it. Partly for genuine security reasons, partly due to it's own messed-up internal politics, and partly due to a desire to occupy more land. But, regardless of the reason, Israel has clearly calculated that it's a price worth paying so is fair game for criticism.

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:19 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:05 pm If we can believe the death toll. Is it verified?

No idea, but I doubt there will ever be an independently verified number. But I think everyone will agree that there will have been many civilian deaths so far. And there comes a point in any war when knowing the precise number ceases to be a priority.

Yes, Hamas will happily use the local civilians as a propaganda tool. But that was always going to happen as it's one of the tools at their disposal and when you're at war you'll do whatever it takes to not lose. Hamas knew when they launched the 7th October attacks that there was almost certainly going to be severe reprisals. The wanted Israel to come in and bomb the f*ck out of Gaza. They want dead and mutilated Palestinians being capture on camera phones and broadcast around the world.

This was the trap that they, and their backers, laid for Israel, as it is intended to de-legitimise the Israeli state in the court of public opinion around the world. Israel has walked right into it. Partly for genuine security reasons, partly due to it's own messed-up internal politics, and partly due to a desire to occupy more land. But, regardless of the reason, Israel has clearly calculated that it's a price worth paying so is fair game for criticism.

So applying that logic, Israel would be fine to destroy everyone and everything in Gaza whether civilian or not to ensure they don't lose?

That cannot be right can it?

Surely its not ok for Hamas to do everything not to lose, but not ok for Israel to take the same approach?



The use of civilians as effectively human shields must be wrong no matter who does it

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:25 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:19 pm

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:05 pm If we can believe the death toll. Is it verified?

No idea, but I doubt there will ever be an independently verified number. But I think everyone will agree that there will have been many civilian deaths so far. And there comes a point in any war when knowing the precise number ceases to be a priority.

Yes, Hamas will happily use the local civilians as a propaganda tool. But that was always going to happen as it's one of the tools at their disposal and when you're at war you'll do whatever it takes to not lose. Hamas knew when they launched the 7th October attacks that there was almost certainly going to be severe reprisals. The wanted Israel to come in and bomb the f*ck out of Gaza. They want dead and mutilated Palestinians being capture on camera phones and broadcast around the world.

This was the trap that they, and their backers, laid for Israel, as it is intended to de-legitimise the Israeli state in the court of public opinion around the world. Israel has walked right into it. Partly for genuine security reasons, partly due to it's own messed-up internal politics, and partly due to a desire to occupy more land. But, regardless of the reason, Israel has clearly calculated that it's a price worth paying so is fair game for criticism.

So applying that logic, Israel would be fine to destroy everyone and everything in Gaza whether civilian or not to ensure they don't lose?

That cannot be right can it?

Surely its not ok for Hamas to do everything not to lose, but not ok for Israel to take the same approach?



The use of civilians as effectively human shields must be wrong no matter who does it

I'm not justifying it, or claiming it is "ok" or "fine". It's just how it is.

This is the thing with war. Once those bullets start flying and the bombs start dropping, little things like ethics, rules, and the concept of right v wrong, tend to go out the window.

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:57 am I would be interested to hear from the Pro Palestinians amongst this group what they have to say on a Human Rights basis about:

https://tinyurl.com/yunjgdfd

1. The existence per se of these tunnels
2. The building of them next to or under civilian facilities, eg schools and hospitals - seemingly creating a situation of using the civilians as hostages.

1 There are a Labyrinth of tunnels under most cities in the world.
2 They run under hospitals Church's Schools as well.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:29 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:57 am I would be interested to hear from the Pro Palestinians amongst this group what they have to say on a Human Rights basis about:

https://tinyurl.com/yunjgdfd

1. The existence per se of these tunnels
2. The building of them next to or under civilian facilities, eg schools and hospitals - seemingly creating a situation of using the civilians as hostages.

1 There are a Labyrinth of tunnels under most cities in the world.
2 They run under hospitals Church's Schools as well.

Not tunnels for military purposes

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:32 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:29 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:57 am I would be interested to hear from the Pro Palestinians amongst this group what they have to say on a Human Rights basis about:

https://tinyurl.com/yunjgdfd

1. The existence per se of these tunnels
2. The building of them next to or under civilian facilities, eg schools and hospitals - seemingly creating a situation of using the civilians as hostages.

1 There are a Labyrinth of tunnels under most cities in the world.
2 They run under hospitals Church's Schools as well.

Not tunnels for military purposes

Really ?
You believe that there aren't tunnels under London or Paris or New york or Washington that arent for military purpose ?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:34 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:32 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:29 pm

1 There are a Labyrinth of tunnels under most cities in the world.
2 They run under hospitals Church's Schools as well.

Not tunnels for military purposes

Really ?
You believe that there aren't tunnels under London or Paris or New york or Washington that arent for military purpose ?

Have it your way. The UK and the French are building military tunnels deliberately next to civilian hospitals and schools etc with a view to using the civilians as human shields


Nothing to see here - Hamas are paragons of virtue

sorry I dare raise concern for the putting at risk of civilians

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:40 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:34 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:32 pm

Not tunnels for military purposes

Really ?
You believe that there aren't tunnels under London or Paris or New york or Washington that arent for military purpose ?

Have it your way. The UK and the French are not building military tunnels deliberately next to civilian hospitals and schools etc with a view to using the civilians as human shields but they do have tunnels which have military usage under London & Paris


Nothing to see here - Hamas are paragons of virtue
Israel doesn't commit genocide because they are the good guys.

sorry I dare raise concern for the putting at risk of civilians

Who has verified these tunnels are for military use
Under Gaza ?

Is it the ones who have been telling us it was targeted bombings etc in Palestine , only for the Americsns to say recently.
Actually it's not smart bombing it's dumb bombing.
So just randomly hitting anything they want.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:44 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:40 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:34 pm

Really ?
You believe that there aren't tunnels under London or Paris or New york or Washington that arent for military purpose ?

Have it your way. The UK and the French are not building military tunnels deliberately next to civilian hospitals and schools etc with a view to using the civilians as human shields but they do have tunnels which have military usage under London & Paris


Nothing to see here - Hamas are paragons of virtue
Israel doesn't commit genocide because they are the good guys.

sorry I dare raise concern for the putting at risk of civilians

Who has verified these tunnels are for military use
Under Gaza ?

Is it the ones who have been telling us it was targeted bombings etc in Palestine , only for the Americsns to say recently.
Actually it's not smart bombing it's dumb bombing.
So just randomly hitting anything they want.

Have it your way - carry on with your whataboutery

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:03 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:44 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:40 pm


Have it your way. The UK and the French are not building military tunnels deliberately next to civilian hospitals and schools etc with a view to using the civilians as human shields but they do have tunnels which have military usage under London & Paris


Nothing to see here - Hamas are paragons of virtue
Israel doesn't commit genocide because they are the good guys.

sorry I dare raise concern for the putting at risk of civilians

Who has verified these tunnels are for military use
Under Gaza ?

Is it the ones who have been telling us it was targeted bombings etc in Palestine , only for the Americsns to say recently.
Actually it's not smart bombing it's dumb bombing.
So just randomly hitting anything they want.

Have it your way - carry on with your whataboutery

If you are capable of changing my mind I am willing to listen
Q1
Who has verified these tunnels are only for military purpose as Palestine or Hamas isn't the Military.
Q2
Why would you assume they arent used for cover
from avoiding Israeli Air strikes on ordinary civillians ?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:25 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:03 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:44 pm

Who has verified these tunnels are for military use
Under Gaza ?

Is it the ones who have been telling us it was targeted bombings etc in Palestine , only for the Americsns to say recently.
Actually it's not smart bombing it's dumb bombing.
So just randomly hitting anything they want.

Have it your way - carry on with your whataboutery

If you are capable of changing my mind I am willing to listen
Q1
Who has verified these tunnels are only for military purpose as Palestine or Hamas isn't the Military.
Q2
Why would you assume they arent used for cover
from avoiding Israeli Air strikes on ordinary civilians ?

You've got your own way

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:35 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:25 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:03 pm


Have it your way - carry on with your whataboutery

If you are capable of changing my mind I am willing to listen
Q1
Who has verified these tunnels are only for military purpose as Palestine or Hamas isn't the Military.
Q2
Why would you assume they arent used for cover
from avoiding Israeli Air strikes on ordinary civilians ?

You've got your own way

I wonder if this is what netenyahu feels like ?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:49 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:35 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:25 pm

If you are capable of changing my mind I am willing to listen
Q1
Who has verified these tunnels are only for military purpose as Palestine or Hamas isn't the Military.
Q2
Why would you assume they arent used for cover
from avoiding Israeli Air strikes on ordinary civilians ?

You've got your own way

I wonder if this is what netenyahu feels like ?

Relentless and still not answered the 2 simple questions raised at the outset.

When you fail to see that there are faults on both sides and there will never be a negotiated solution

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:05 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:49 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:35 pm
You've got your own way

I wonder if this is what netenyahu feels like ?

Relentless and still not answered the 2 simple questions raised at the outset.

When you fail to see that there are faults on both sides and there will never be a negotiated solution

Tunnels claimed to be bad tunnels by idf, idf claimed calculated smart precision strikes, America has said, nope scatter no aim dumb bombs.why would anybody listen to the lies like the idf tell , or the daily mail ?

Pardon?

Pardon what ?