Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:09 pm

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:39 am

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:22 am

Tell you what. I started to read it and couldn’t put it down. Was interested to see a Guardian journalist amongst those involved. OK, given my background this stuff, in depth reports, is my thing. The data was fascinating, the graphs extremely telling and the commentary surprisingly honest. An exceptional piece of work in my opinion and I’ve read plenty of big reports, and produced a few too, in my time.

The comparison between the Tories and Labour when looking at the approach to the 2019 election was massive. It was telling that despite wining, the Tories acted as though they lost, Labour despite losing acted as though they won. Hugely incompetent by the Labour top team. Other aspects of incompetence are seen throughout the work that dwarfs anything we see from the Tories, who, by this account ran a slick, precise and effective election campaign against Labours ragbag disjointed effort. Not hard to understand why Labour lost so big and theIf tough ask to regain credibility. Though will say my opinions of Corbyn are well known, this reports shows why. But even I was surprised by the level of his lack of leadership. Incompetence.

Whilst the report is good, it too plays into the hands of the Tories. It outlines in advance how Labour may go about improving for 2024 So the Tories, who will dissect every paragraph, will be ready.

It also suggests, to me anyway, that if Labour are to win an election they need to attract the middle ground People, start relating to people in the modern world and stop trying to be revolutionary far left protesters, which is how I see them. Blair got it so right, Corbyn so wrong. Parties exist for the people, something Labour seem to have forgot.

So, over the next few weeks I’ll read it again and digest it more. It’s that good. Well done Labour to do this, a real start on the long road of recovery now they have ditched the incompetent fool running the show.

Pretty impressed you read the whole thing already! But if this is your background then fair enough.

What would you say is in there that dwarfs the incompetence of the Tories, out of interest? Also, what examples does it give of the Tories acting as if they lost?

I disagree on the 'far left' tag, it just really wasn't, but think it gives a good example of why they lost, too. Labour were about as left as the Tories were to the right, but one of those were deemed as 'protesters' or 'incompetent', the other as realistic and competent. I'm really glad the report exists and is honest, but I think much of it is pretty simple. There was no way a win could be achieved with a 'Corbyn plus Brexit' approach. Maybe one, but not both at the same time. I actually think if Corbyn had been heavily publicly on the side of leave they'd have had more chance than Starmer and heavily remain.

Plus right side parties can team up easier than left side parties can as it's easier to be a Tory, economically right and concede some social issues to the left than it is to be Labour, economically left and concede some social issues to the right.

Looking at how Labour approached the 2019 elections compared to the Tories. People need to read it for themselves to determine what level of competence existed in the party. Not so much their policies but the wide ranging offers that failed to give people any idea of what they were really about, For me a bit like going into a pick and mix sweet shop. You may like what you see on offer but no way can you have it all. No clear message, diluted, fuzzy. So much on offer that people felt they were not realistic or deliverable. Which they weren’t. My views exactly at the time. Pie in the sky. Not credible. I would call that incompetent, others may disagree. The election result suggests incompetence to me.

Their 2017 message, for the many not the few, was better. The Tories had a simple clear message In 2019, appropriate at the time. Labour do talk about the improvement in 2017. Personally I see it as no more that people being sick of austerity, the May car crash of an election campaign and Corbyn making attractive offers. Yet May still won. Writing on the wall.

The far left tag is an interesting one. It’s about perception. Some great graphs in there covering this stuff and the ground, largely either side of the centre, parties need to win over. And where maybe people see Labour. Don’t matter whether it’s right or not. I need to study that a bit more to really grasp the message.

Interesting to see their take on people. The decline of the “traditional working class” voters and the decline in Trade Union membership”. All strong Labour areas but declining. People are changing, Labour still stuck in the past.

The habit of voters by age is fascinating. The young tend towards Labour but with age that tendency swings towards the Tories. Interesting to see also the numbers of working class people moving towards the Tories.

Interesting graph on socialism across Europe. In decline. The fight in future is around the centre ground.

I can’t possibly do the report justice in one read. Too much to absorb. Looking forward to some good bedtime reading over the next week or so. Kier has to break records to win the next election. I wish him luck.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:35 pm Some good points though.

However, in my lifetime the Torres have had to sort out the economic mess left by Labour, when labour have come back to power they’ve been left a strong and solid economy with which to work with. However, the policies that are adopted ultimately drive the economy in to decline, one reason for that is the monies spent on what could be argued are good progressive policies end up not being affordable as Labour fall into the trap of not increasing direct taxation as they are afraid of being labelled once more of being a party of high taxation.

Corbyn did have some decent policies, but he was a brexitieer which he failed to speak up about so people lost trust in him as a Leader, couple that with complete loonatic denationalisation programme and it’s a no from many people I’m afraid.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:35 pm Some good points though.

However, in my lifetime the Torres have had to sort out the economic mess left by Labour, when labour have come back to power they’ve been left a strong and solid economy with which to work with. However, the policies that are adopted ultimately drive the economy in to decline, one reason for that is the monies spent on what could be argued are good progressive policies end up not being affordable as Labour fall into the trap of not increasing direct taxation as they are afraid of being labelled once more of being a party of high taxation.

Corbyn did have some decent policies, but he was a brexitieer which he failed to speak up about so people lost trust in him as a Leader, couple that with complete loonatic denationalisation programme and it’s a no from many people I’m afraid.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:54 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:09 pm

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:39 am

Pretty impressed you read the whole thing already! But if this is your background then fair enough.

What would you say is in there that dwarfs the incompetence of the Tories, out of interest? Also, what examples does it give of the Tories acting as if they lost?

I disagree on the 'far left' tag, it just really wasn't, but think it gives a good example of why they lost, too. Labour were about as left as the Tories were to the right, but one of those were deemed as 'protesters' or 'incompetent', the other as realistic and competent. I'm really glad the report exists and is honest, but I think much of it is pretty simple. There was no way a win could be achieved with a 'Corbyn plus Brexit' approach. Maybe one, but not both at the same time. I actually think if Corbyn had been heavily publicly on the side of leave they'd have had more chance than Starmer and heavily remain.

Plus right side parties can team up easier than left side parties can as it's easier to be a Tory, economically right and concede some social issues to the left than it is to be Labour, economically left and concede some social issues to the right.

Looking at how Labour approached the 2019 elections compared to the Tories. People need to read it for themselves to determine what level of competence existed in the party. Not so much their policies but the wide ranging offers that failed to give people any idea of what they were really about, For me a bit like going into a pick and mix sweet shop. You may like what you see on offer but no way can you have it all. No clear message, diluted, fuzzy. So much on offer that people felt they were not realistic or deliverable. Which they weren’t. My views exactly at the time. Pie in the sky. Not credible. I would call that incompetent, others may disagree. The election result suggests incompetence to me.

Their 2017 message, for the many not the few, was better. The Tories had a simple clear message In 2019, appropriate at the time. Labour do talk about the improvement in 2017. Personally I see it as no more that people being sick of austerity, the May car crash of an election campaign and Corbyn making attractive offers. Yet May still won. Writing on the wall.

The far left tag is an interesting one. It’s about perception. Some great graphs in there covering this stuff and the ground, largely either side of the centre, parties need to win over. And where maybe people see Labour. Don’t matter whether it’s right or not. I need to study that a bit more to really grasp the message.

Interesting to see their take on people. The decline of the “traditional working class” voters and the decline in Trade Union membership”. All strong Labour areas but declining. People are changing, Labour still stuck in the past.

The habit of voters by age is fascinating. The young tend towards Labour but with age that tendency swings towards the Tories. Interesting to see also the numbers of working class people moving towards the Tories.

Interesting graph on socialism across Europe. In decline. The fight in future is around the centre ground.

I can’t possibly do the report justice in one read. Too much to absorb. Looking forward to some good bedtime reading over the next week or so. Kier has to break records to win the next election. I wish him luck.

Would you say you're particularly middle of the ground though Dohnut? Judging purely by what I've read here you seem to be more favoured towards the Tory party anyway. Could there be some bias? Not a negative, but worth being aware of. I know you've said you've voted for both in the past, but Labour in 1997 to Labour in 2017 was a completely different party.

It's interesting that you'd take the election result as validation that they were incompetent, or more incompetent than the Tories. The Conservatives from around 2010 have been effective in appeasing the right side of their party but as an actual government have been largely unsuccessful in nearly ever unit of measurement. The only one's they may appear successful in (i.e employment numbers) they have changed the goalposts on.

Also, to back up my belief that election result doesn't equal 'who was more competent?' is the fact that you're quite right that 'Get Brexit Done!' was very successful, and to a lesser so 'For The Many, Not The Few' was the same. That probably backs up that the country needs simpler messaging or doesn't read deeper into the headline, so again, I would say an 80 seat majority isn't about competence, but preference. And they are wildly different things.

It's interesting, as the report mentions, this distaste towards centre left parties and politics is being seen by historic lows across Europe. It's also not uncommon for people to move more right leaning in times of particular economic hardships nationally and globally, as we have obviously had a lot of since 2008 in particular. I'm not sure that reflects on how the Labour Party is or how competent it is, but it'll always get viewed a certain way and can only change that to a degree. See also; Raheem Sterling. He has done a lot of social good and started to get some plaudits for it recently but had a poor public perception just a few years ago, despite his good actions. Sometimes people will just have a fairly unshakeable belief and bias. See also; 'The Tories fix Labour's poor economies'. Realistically, they are both about the same as each other.

I'd also say to maybe read the part about Europe again as I believe from the glance I've had they are talking about mixed economy social democracy as opposed to socialism. And I think they are talking about parties advocating those ideologies having a decline in voters, rather than social democracy or socialism itself having a decline. As it isn't even governing or existing in some places mentioned.

One of the big issues as well is that people gained a distrust for politicians at an accelerated rate during the 90's and 00's as them being 'all the same'. So is centrism and going more centre (ie being less distinguishable from the other parties) particularly helpful? Going to be difficult.

Personally, I think the party isn't good enough, however, I think it is clearly a better option than the Government, but they have had a perfect storm over the last decade to cover their mistakes, so they'll continue.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:10 pm For the record I agree Labour's messaging and way of selling itself was absolutely tragic. I'm not defending that.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:49 pm

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:10 pm For the record I agree Labour's messaging and way of selling itself was absolutely tragic. I'm not defending that.

The real tragedy is that somewhere in amongst their offerings there was some good stuff, I think. But I doubted Corbyn’s ability to deliver any of it. He divided his party and divided the country in my opinion.

Johnson at least created the perception of unity to a degree.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 am If this virus teaches us anything is that together we can conquer anything.

Let me explain my opening line. Society has become fractured over time, with people driven by what we are told and see and we have become insular, chasing the pound note. I admit I have been guilty of that, but the system has or is set up for that to happen.

Now I hope that communities have become closer, wanting to come closer together and as a society focus on the stuff that really matters. We need to use our voices to be heard, it’s not left v right it’s about everyone together to deliver the real kind of society we want to live in.

I just hope there are more people out there that want to see real change.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 am If this virus teaches us anything is that together we can conquer anything.

Let me explain my opening line. Society has become fractured over time, with people driven by what we are told and see and we have become insular, chasing the pound note. I admit I have been guilty of that, but the system has or is set up for that to happen.

Now I hope that communities have become closer, wanting to come closer together and as a society focus on the stuff that really matters. We need to use our voices to be heard, it’s not left v right it’s about everyone together to deliver the real kind of society we want to live in.

I just hope there are more people out there that want to see real change.

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 am If this virus teaches us anything is that together we can conquer anything.

Let me explain my opening line. Society has become fractured over time, with people driven by what we are told and see and we have become insular, chasing the pound note. I admit I have been guilty of that, but the system has or is set up for that to happen.

Now I hope that communities have become closer, wanting to come closer together and as a society focus on the stuff that really matters. We need to use our voices to be heard, it’s not left v right it’s about everyone together to deliver the real kind of society we want to live in.

I just hope there are more people out there that want to see real change.

NuneatonO's wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:01 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 am If this virus teaches us anything is that together we can conquer anything.

Let me explain my opening line. Society has become fractured over time, with people driven by what we are told and see and we have become insular, chasing the pound note. I admit I have been guilty of that, but the system has or is set up for that to happen.

Now I hope that communities have become closer, wanting to come closer together and as a society focus on the stuff that really matters. We need to use our voices to be heard, it’s not left v right it’s about everyone together to deliver the real kind of society we want to live in.

I just hope there are more people out there that want to see real change.

People across the UK, had that very chance in 2017 and 2019.

Sadly, they didn't take it.

One day, they may wake up and realise.

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:18 pm

NuneatonO's wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:01 pm

Thor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 am If this virus teaches us anything is that together we can conquer anything.

Let me explain my opening line. Society has become fractured over time, with people driven by what we are told and see and we have become insular, chasing the pound note. I admit I have been guilty of that, but the system has or is set up for that to happen.

Now I hope that communities have become closer, wanting to come closer together and as a society focus on the stuff that really matters. We need to use our voices to be heard, it’s not left v right it’s about everyone together to deliver the real kind of society we want to live in.

I just hope there are more people out there that want to see real change.

People across the UK, had that very chance in 2017 and 2019.

Sadly, they didn't take it.

One day, they may wake up and realise.

The Labour Party is currently not a good role model for people coming together and working together. People did see that in 2019. The Labour Party have woken up to that and are dealing with it to their credit. The Tories are smart enough to hide their divisions when it matters most of the time.

Admin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:30 pm

Dohnut wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:18 pm

NuneatonO's wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:01 pm
People across the UK, had that very chance in 2017 and 2019.

Sadly, they didn't take it.

One day, they may wake up and realise.

The Labour Party is currently not a good role model for people coming together and working together. People did see that in 2019. The Labour Party have woken up to that and are dealing with it to their credit. The Tories are smart enough to hide their divisions when it matters most of the time.

You do talk utter pish.

The Tories did it by very publicly ejecting moderate one nation conservatives like Rory Stewart, Nick Bowles and Ken Clarke. And now you’re left with supine careerist man babies like Hart Mancock etc who’ve completely about-turned their previous positions to remain in the party.

And you’re happy voting for it and being governed by it.

Admin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:17 pm Ok. So you agree that the Tories basically dealt with disunity by removing anyone with any sense of independent thought. Does that represent leadership for you?

Given the Tories handling of Covid 19 are you still content that Boris was the best of a bad bunch?

Oh and by the way, I’m no slavering Corbynite. I’m a left winger for sure but can quite easily recognise the sainted JC’s failings.