Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:39 pm

RedO wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:38 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:20 am

Even if they lie through their teeth they wont get the seats in Scotland necessary to win a majority. Probably time to form a progressive alliance with Greens, Libtards, churches, play groups, lentil launchers, yoghurt knitters, etc

Not sure Sirkier has much common ground with any of those groups. He could seek a coalition with the tories, I guess.

Well he is a Red one so it would make sense.

Probably best to do and say anything just to win an election. Winning is what matters most. Don't you think?

You have to get into power to make changes fella.

Still early days for Starmer but to me so far, it's all been a bit meh. Appreciate Covid is the only story in town but if there's an alternative message from Labour on anything I can't say I'm hearing it very loudly. And unless I've missed it all, where the f*ck has Angela Rayner gone? Besides seeing her kneeling with SKS for BLM, it seems like she's been sidelined.

Suspect the polling shift is more down to the Tories being found out for being utterly useless rather than Labour suddenly becoming more appealing. Still don't yet see how Starmer's going to appeal more to the "Red Wall" constituencies let alone Scotland. Time will tell. Whilst PMQ's is a relatively meaningless shouty showpiece, Starmer's inability to deal with Boris turning it into Opposition Questions showed he's possibly not that quick on his feet - a problem that Corbyn never got to grips with either (yeah yeah i know along with plenty of other stuff too). He'll need to up his game and have more than just lawyer style questioning if he's to deal with Boris and his braying mob.

For me, too. He hasn't said anything really, has made middle finger appointments to the left of the party and is just playing the Mr Sensible card. The problem being, that is the bit that gets the votes. Too many people find that comforting. Rather than see it as enabling to this government they seem to see it as comforting. I think he is genuinely popular with the middle ground, but he's going to struggle to pull away from the 'bloody Liebout anti British!' malarkey.

I think overall he has played it pretty well despite doing hardly anything bar a few little token nuggets of soundbites. But apparently that is what the country wants.

Wholly underwhelming though. But, you get the government you deserve.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:17 am Still early days for Starmer but to me so far, it's all been a bit meh. Appreciate Covid is the only story in town but if there's an alternative message from Labour on anything I can't say I'm hearing it very loudly. And unless I've missed it all, where the f*ck has Angela Rayner gone? Besides seeing her kneeling with SKS for BLM, it seems like she's been sidelined.

Suspect the polling shift is more down to the Tories being found out for being utterly useless rather than Labour suddenly becoming more appealing. Still don't yet see how Starmer's going to appeal more to the "Red Wall" constituencies let alone Scotland. Time will tell. Whilst PMQ's is a relatively meaningless shouty showpiece, Starmer's inability to deal with Boris turning it into Opposition Questions showed he's possibly not that quick on his feet - a problem that Corbyn never got to grips with either (yeah yeah i know along with plenty of other stuff too). He'll need to up his game and have more than just lawyer style questioning if he's to deal with Boris and his braying mob.

Fair points. It has been a mixed bag for the leftist-knight. He is going to have to display some steel and willingness to get ‘down and dirty’ to be at his most effective against Johnson.

Starmer appears to be vying to become the King of appeasement.
Within about 10 minutes of his appointment he wrote a grovelling letter to the board of Deputies, probably because he thought unless youre in favour with the Zionist mob, you have no chance of election, as Jeremy found out last December.
The opposition wont disagree on much of what the government is doing ( or not doing), all designed I think, to give the impression hes an agreeable chap, who wont rock the boat, and keep things on an even keel.
With the most inept government for years, Labour should be making ground at a fast rate, but it doesn't seem to be happening .
The Labour party isnt for me any more, and Im now politically homeless

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:09 pm Starmer appears to be vying to become the King of appeasement.
Within about 10 minutes of his appointment he wrote a grovelling letter to the board of Deputies, probably because he thought unless youre in favour with the Zionist mob, you have no chance of election, as Jeremy found out last December.
The opposition wont disagree on much of what the government is doing ( or not doing), all designed I think, to give the impression hes an agreeable chap, who wont rock the boat, and keep things on an even keel.
With the most inept government for years, Labour should be making ground at a fast rate, but it doesn't seem to be happening .
The Labour party isnt for me any more, and Im now politically homeless

The guy has to be given a decent chance and the Covid crisis, whilst providing him with an opportunity is a two edged sword. The Government is after all funding all sorts of stuff to keep the economy going, so he needs to tread carefully.

I have little doubt that behind the scenes he is trying to put Labours house in order, stuff that currently don’t make the news. That for me is critical. Not where Labour are now but where they will be coming up to the next election. Marathon rather than sprint stuff. And he has a mega mess to sort out.

So whilst it’s nice to see him score a few points now over BoJo, that’s not his immediate priority. He can bide his time, wait for the Covid issue and Brexit issue go away. Sort out the party and get solid people in place, then in two years go on the attack with credible people and evolving credible policies based on the state of the country at that time.

You mean 'freebies for all' that the Government are currently giving away, right Dohnut?

That is very true, DCC.

Be interesting to see, not that you ever could, how many of those that did knock doors were there for Corbyn. I'd suggest at least half, very likely more - but it's an easy line and probably still true.

PoliticOs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:16 pm That is very true, DCC.

Be interesting to see, not that you ever could, how many of those that did knock doors were there for Corbyn. I'd suggest at least half, very likely more - but it's an easy line and probably still true.

Probably, doorstop canvassers during a GE tend to be there to get their leader elected PM. I'd be interested in how many decided not to mention JC as part of their pitch

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:05 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's some truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:05 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's some truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

So Labour's f*cked in the event of Scottish Independence, then? - and, much as I hate Scottish nationalism almost as much as I hate English nationalism and all other shades of that particular turd, I'm leaning more towards saying "sod it, we can't be worse off alone than with the current WM mob" - (both sides of the benches) - I don't think I'm alone in that thought.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:05 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's som99e truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

Quite, yet a particular wing of the party spends a rather large amount of time lamenting with hyperbolic language (on this thread for example) the times when they were in office.

If they're spending an inordinate amount of time sh*tting on Labour Government's instead of praising the many many good things they did for families like my own then guess what? It's going to feed into the Tory narrative.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:58 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:05 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's some truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

So Labour's f*cked in the event of Scottish Independence, then? - and, much as I hate Scottish nationalism almost as much as I hate English nationalism and all other shades of that particular turd, I'm leaning more towards saying "sod it, we can't be worse off alone than with the current WM mob" - (both sides of the benches) - I don't think I'm alone in that thought.

I'm not sure Labour can be any more f*cked in Scotland, except perhaps to lose it's only seat there? You're much better placed than I am to explain why Labour has almost no political presence in Scotland now - a trend that started back in 2010.

Given the way Westminster parties have traditionally treated Scotland as not much more than an outlying bit of the UK nailed to the top of England, Scottish Nationalism is hardly surprising I suppose. Like you, I'm not keen on any form of nationalism and have no desire to see Scottish independence.

But, from a mathematical point of view, Labour will need one hell of a turnaround to win an election without any scottish seats.

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:07 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:05 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's som99e truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

Quite, yet a particular wing of the party spends a rather large amount of time lamenting with hyperbolic language (on this thread for example) the times when they were in office.

If they're spending an inordinate amount of time sh*tting on Labour Government's instead of praising the many many good things they did for families like my own then guess what? It's going to feed into the Tory narrative.

I get that - and as someone who had turned away from labour after Brown but became re-engaged in politics at the time of Corbyn's leadership victory, it's a disappointment that in the end, a combination of Corbyn's limitations, ongoing party disunity (from PLP level downwards) coupled with all of the external factors like a hostile media has led to the whole Corbyn era being dismissed as nothing more than an aberration.

And yes - plenty of sh*tting and disowning the Blair / Brown years was never going to play well. Iraq aside (and it's a big thing to leave aside), we'll look back on 97-05 as a period which saw a lot of progression in terms of the domestic agenda, much of which has sadly been more than undone by 10 years of austerity drive by a needless Tory ideology.

But - let us not completely absolve the right of the Labour party here. Plenty of blame to throw at those who refused to accept Corbyn as democratically accepted leader and did their best to undermine it from day 1.

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:25 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:07 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's som99e truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

Quite, yet a particular wing of the party spends a rather large amount of time lamenting with hyperbolic language (on this thread for example) the times when they were in office.

If they're spending an inordinate amount of time sh*tting on Labour Government's instead of praising the many many good things they did for families like my own then guess what? It's going to feed into the Tory narrative.

I get that - and as someone who had turned away from labour after Brown but became re-engaged in politics at the time of Corbyn's leadership victory, it's a disappointment that in the end, a combination of Corbyn's limitations, ongoing party disunity (from PLP level downwards) coupled with all of the external factors like a hostile media has led to the whole Corbyn era being dismissed as nothing more than an aberration.

And yes - plenty of sh*tting and disowning the Blair / Brown years was never going to play well. Iraq aside (and it's a big thing to leave aside), we'll look back on 97-05 as a period which saw a lot of progression in terms of the domestic agenda, much of which has sadly been more than undone by 10 years of austerity drive by a needless Tory ideology.

But - let us not completely absolve the right of the Labour party here. Plenty of blame to throw at those who refused to accept Corbyn as democratically accepted leader and did their best to undermine it from day 1.

Happy to blame those who agreed to work for him then backtracked. Backbenchers undermining the leadership however is something JC is well versed in

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:49 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:25 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:07 pm

Quite, yet a particular wing of the party spends a rather large amount of time lamenting with hyperbolic language (on this thread for example) the times when they were in office.

If they're spending an inordinate amount of time sh*tting on Labour Government's instead of praising the many many good things they did for families like my own then guess what? It's going to feed into the Tory narrative.

I get that - and as someone who had turned away from labour after Brown but became re-engaged in politics at the time of Corbyn's leadership victory, it's a disappointment that in the end, a combination of Corbyn's limitations, ongoing party disunity (from PLP level downwards) coupled with all of the external factors like a hostile media has led to the whole Corbyn era being dismissed as nothing more than an aberration.

And yes - plenty of sh*tting and disowning the Blair / Brown years was never going to play well. Iraq aside (and it's a big thing to leave aside), we'll look back on 97-05 as a period which saw a lot of progression in terms of the domestic agenda, much of which has sadly been more than undone by 10 years of austerity drive by a needless Tory ideology.

But - let us not completely absolve the right of the Labour party here. Plenty of blame to throw at those who refused to accept Corbyn as democratically accepted leader and did their best to undermine it from day 1.

Happy to blame those who agreed to work for him then backtracked. Backbenchers undermining the leadership however is something JC is well versed in

Not sure I entirely agree (admittedly I've no qualms in seeing Corbyn's faults btw) but quite frankly, as I think I've said already, replaying the argument about the Corbyn era is a huge part of Labour's ongoing problem. Corbyn's irrelevant now and whilst I may long for the purity of socialism and a socialist government, I have to accept that as being unlikely for now.

Whether I like it or not, Starmer's and Labour are the only act in town for the left to coalesce around. Sadly though, even against this utter clusterfuck of a government, it's got one hell of a job on it's hands if it wants to get anywhere near government.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:58 pm

Admin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:05 pm

As a left-leaning labour supporter, I'd say there's some truth to that. In traditional style, the Labour Party has a strong history of not only talking to (or at) itself, it spends an inordinate amount of time fighting enemies within rather than those on the outside. Remember the party has spent long periods previously (51-64, 79-97 and now 10-?) out of government and the current position isn't exactly new ground. What has changed is the loss of 30 - 40 Scottish seats to the SNP which add a further necessary challenge to overcome if Labour are to get anywhere near an election victory.

The "broad church" tagline has constantly proved to be utter bollocks and the party is going through yet another period of "reflection" - whether there's to be an uneasy truce between the left and right of the party remains to be seen. Both sides appear to still be content blaming the other for the failure to build on the unexpected result in 2017 rather than accept that a disunited party is likely to remain in opposition.

Corbyn's result in 2017 will represent probably the closest we'll get to a socialist victory for at least a generation or more. However, for the left, Labour in its current form under Starmer represents the only but imperfect act in town.

So Labour's f*cked in the event of Scottish Independence, then? - and, much as I hate Scottish nationalism almost as much as I hate English nationalism and all other shades of that particular turd, I'm leaning more towards saying "sod it, we can't be worse off alone than with the current WM mob" - (both sides of the benches) - I don't think I'm alone in that thought.

You're probably not alone. But with the US likely to continue to become isolationist and the EU about to enter a economic crisis, the international scene is a bit of a sh*t show. As nuts as Westminster is right now I remain unconvinced that the life of the average Scot would be better following independence. However, that may not stop them.

I felt the Scots were 'nuts' not to vote for independence in 2014. A once in a generation chance to get away from the shitshow that is Westminster.
no Tory government EVER...what a wonderful prospect that is, for a start
The Republic of Ireland did OK, and there are many smaller countries than Scotland that are independent counties
They missed a wonderful chance then

Yeah - well, you see, back then it wasn't yet fashionable to f*** your country into a cocked hat based on nothing more than empty but easy to learn slogans, stupid flag waving and blind jingoism.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:01 pm I felt the Scots were 'nuts' not to vote for independence in 2014. A once in a generation chance to get away from the shitshow that is Westminster.
no Tory government EVER...what a wonderful prospect that is, for a start
The Republic of Ireland did OK, and there are many smaller countries than Scotland that are independent counties
They missed a wonderful chance then

It was right to give them a vote and people voted. A once in a generation chance. Personally I’m glad they stayed as part of the Union. It’s done. Time to move on.

That Labour GE review seems long on what went wrong - and I’d broadly agree with the findings - but very short on how to fix things and win back those Red Wall and Scottish seats without losing their metropolitan vote. I suspect Starmer’s team will just be hoping Johnson’s Govt continue to make such a mess of things that, post Brexit (and Corbyn), those provincial town voters just drift back to them in large enough numbers.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:09 pm With the most inept government for years, Labour should be making ground at a fast rate, but it doesn't seem to be happening .

You don’t call closing the gap from 23 points to 5 points in a couple of months ‘making ground at a fast rate’?

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:19 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:09 pm With the most inept government for years, Labour should be making ground at a fast rate, but it doesn't seem to be happening .

You don’t call closing the gap from 23 points to 5 points in a couple of months ‘making ground at a fast rate’?

Yeah like all those same polls that said steptoe would win. What happened he got smashed when it came to real people, voting on real issues.

Labour is dead and buried. Laters losers.

Thor wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:26 pm

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:19 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:09 pm With the most inept government for years, Labour should be making ground at a fast rate, but it doesn't seem to be happening .

You don’t call closing the gap from 23 points to 5 points in a couple of months ‘making ground at a fast rate’?

Yeah like all those same polls that said steptoe would win. What happened he got smashed when it came to real people, voting on real issues.

Labour is dead and buried. Laters losers.

Didn't happen, every poll showed a Tory lead during the GE campaign

The only people I remember saying Corbs would win were the deluded online left