Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:33 am Ok why are we pretending we shouldn’t be encouraging a humanitarian cause, even if it doesn’t resolve the conflict?

Humanitarian pauses - in which people stop attacking each other - is fine.

A ceasefire - in which, er, people stop attacking each other - is not realistic.

Finally, he gets it.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:05 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:33 am Ok why are we pretending we shouldn’t be encouraging a humanitarian cause, even if it doesn’t resolve the conflict?

Humanitarian pauses - in which people stop attacking each other - is fine.

A ceasefire - in which, er, people stop attacking each other - is not realistic.

I'm not sure if you are just dumb or on a constant windup.

Which bit of suggesting those in positions of power should have been calling for a ceasefire weeks and weeks ago is dumb or a wind up?

If you don't wish to answer that, you could just ban me again.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:15 am Day 4 since one of the most blatant pieces of racism I've seen on this cesspit since the days of that HoddesdonO. And yes, it does indeed seem as if it's going to be allowed to slide....

It slid.

Most people here have taken the side of the Palestinians in this current conflict not because they particularly care about the Palestinians but because theyre anti semitic. But thats stating the obvious

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:50 am Which bit of suggesting those in positions of power should have been calling for a ceasefire weeks and weeks ago is dumb or a wind up?

If you don't wish to answer that, you could just ban me again.

Its been covered, but of course its dumb.

A 1000 civilians have just been slaughtered, but ceasefire?

Hamas need to be defeated, until that happens there shouldnt be a ceasefire. I think theres a better chance of long term peace once they're gone.

Neptune's Spear wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:17 am Most people here have taken the side of the Palestinians in this current conflict not because they particularly care about the Palestinians but because theyre anti semitic. But thats stating the obvious

Any facts a figures to back up a very serious claim like that?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:21 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:50 am Which bit of suggesting those in positions of power should have been calling for a ceasefire weeks and weeks ago is dumb or a wind up?

If you don't wish to answer that, you could just ban me again.

Its been covered, but of course its dumb.

A 1000 civilians have just been slaughtered, but ceasefire?

Hamas need to be defeated, until that happens there shouldnt be a ceasefire. I think theres a better chance of long term peace once they're gone.

Honest question. Do you think that, even if Hamas is “deafeated” (whatever that means), that the way Israel have gone about doing it/all the history will not be a trigger for more people to sign up to Hamas v2?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:26 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:21 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:50 am Which bit of suggesting those in positions of power should have been calling for a ceasefire weeks and weeks ago is dumb or a wind up?

If you don't wish to answer that, you could just ban me again.

Its been covered, but of course its dumb.

A 1000 civilians have just been slaughtered, but ceasefire?

Hamas need to be defeated, until that happens there shouldnt be a ceasefire. I think theres a better chance of long term peace once they're gone.

Honest question. Do you think they even if Hamas is “deafeated” (whatever that means), that the way Israel have gone about doing it/all the history will not be a trigger for more people to sign up to Hamas v2?

Every young Palestinian boy, who makes it through this alive, is a potential Freedom fighter/terrorist of the 2030's. How on earth can young Palestinians not hate Israelis after this genocide?
Israel cannot continue like this for much longer, its not sustainable

Probably, as that is what has led to Hamas forming in the first place. But what alternative did Israel have after Oct 7?

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:35 am Probably, as that is what has led to Hamas forming in the first place. But what alternative did Israel have after Oct 7?

Same question back at you - what alternative did Hamas have before Oct 7th?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:26 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:21 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 10:50 am Which bit of suggesting those in positions of power should have been calling for a ceasefire weeks and weeks ago is dumb or a wind up?

If you don't wish to answer that, you could just ban me again.

Its been covered, but of course its dumb.

A 1000 civilians have just been slaughtered, but ceasefire?

Hamas need to be defeated, until that happens there shouldnt be a ceasefire. I think theres a better chance of long term peace once they're gone.

Honest question. Do you think they even if Hamas is “deafeated” (whatever that means), that the way Israel have gone about doing it/all the history will not be a trigger for more people to sign up to Hamas v2?

This is where I am on the situation.

The lesson to be learnt from Iraq and Libya is that things can always get worse. And, when tyrannical regimes have been toppled through foreign military intervention, what has emerged in the void has proven to be far worse. There's a reasonable argument to be made that we'd be better off had we stuck with Sadam than ISIS, and Gaddafi than the various militias that now control what is a failed state.

I see no reason why the outcome will be any different in Gaza. And in doing what it is, Israel is just adding weight to the propaganda spread by the Tehran regime. It is falling into an Islamist trap. It is making ordinary Israelis less safe, and risks further destabilisation of a region that is already a powder keg.

But, I also believe that the domestic political reality within Israel makes it difficult for them to change tact. Any state is going to be under domestic pressure to respond with force to what Hamas did on Oct 7. It Israel will have assessed that Hamas is a genuine threat, they maintain significant support within the population of Gaza and, as they control all educational establishments, will be indoctrinating the following generations into a fundamentalist Islamic ideology that is committed to wiping them out.

However, the Netanyahu government (which is bad enough by itself) is beholden to at least two ethno/theocractic/nationalist nutjob parties who have an iron-clad belief in their right to occupy all of the Palestinian territories (and even Jordon). They too have considerable support, and they have been accommodated by the both the state and IDF whilst participating in illegal settler activities. They blew a gasket when Israel forced them to leave Gaza during the withdrawal, and there could be full-on civil war if the same was to happen in the West Bank.

The whole thing is absolutely f*cked. Any intervention from any of the external actors in this risks escalation and deadly consequences. But leaving things to run their course is just as risky. This is going to take a coordinated effort and a lot of luck between the USA, the Saudis, Qatar, Egypt and Jordon to try and put the genie back into the bottle.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:42 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:35 am Probably, as that is what has led to Hamas forming in the first place. But what alternative did Israel have after Oct 7?

Same question back at you - what alternative did Hamas have before Oct 7th?

Peace talks, isnt that what you want? Or do you support a terrorist group now?

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:42 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:35 am Probably, as that is what has led to Hamas forming in the first place. But what alternative did Israel have after Oct 7?

Same question back at you - what alternative did Hamas have before Oct 7th?

That is a tad disingenuous. Hamas had a choice. They may not have liked the choice, but one was there. We can both argue that the alternatives were not feasible, but there absolutely was an alternative. Just as Israel has one now.

They had the opportunity to demonstrate that they were capable of reasonable governance of a statelet to a albeit limited degree, whilst leveraging normalisation talks between Israel and the Saudis to their longer-term advantage. It was far from perfect, nowhere near what they wanted, and was almost certainly not going to result in the implementation of a Two-state solution. But then Hamas are not interested in that solution anyway.

Or they had the option to take the coin from the Mullahs, and mount a sophisticated military operation than was designed to generate a reaction from Israel that would harm the normalisation talks with the Saudis.

They made their choice, and are in the process of finding out the consequences. Well, the grunts are finding out, as their leaders and backers are safe and in comfort in Tehran and Doha.

Neptune's Spear wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:17 am Most people here have taken the side of the Palestinians in this current conflict not because they particularly care about the Palestinians but because theyre anti semitic. But thats stating the obvious

Outright lies = stating the obvious. I am very clever

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:58 am

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:42 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:35 am Probably, as that is what has led to Hamas forming in the first place. But what alternative did Israel have after Oct 7?

Same question back at you - what alternative did Hamas have before Oct 7th?

Peace talks, isnt that what you want? Or do you support a terrorist group now?

It takes two to hold peace talks.....

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:01 pm

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:42 am

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:35 am Probably, as that is what has led to Hamas forming in the first place. But what alternative did Israel have after Oct 7?

Same question back at you - what alternative did Hamas have before Oct 7th?

That is a tad disingenuous. Hamas had a choice. They may not have liked the choice, but one was there. We can both argue that the alternatives were not feasible, but there absolutely was an alternative. Just as Israel has one now.

They had the opportunity to demonstrate that they were capable of reasonable governance of a statelet to a albeit limited degree, whilst leveraging normalisation talks between Israel and the Saudis to their longer-term advantage. It was far from perfect, nowhere near what they wanted, and was almost certainly not going to result in the implementation of a Two-state solution. But then Hamas are not interested in that solution anyway.

Or they had the option to take the coin from the Mullahs, and mount a sophisticated military operation than was designed to generate a reaction from Israel that would harm the normalisation talks with the Saudis.

They made their choice, and are in the process of finding out the consequences. Well, the grunts are finding out, as their leaders and backers are safe and in comfort in Tehran and Doha.

Interesting that you chose to answer my follow up question, but ignored the initial question...

Even Biden has now called out Israel over there 'indiscriminate bombing' of Palestinian civillians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67699255

Hopefully he'll also call for a pause in hostilities.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:36 pm Even Biden has now called out Israel over there 'indiscriminate bombing' of Palestinian civillians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67699255

Slightly strange thing to do immediately after forcing a bill through to provide them with more ammo. Maybe do it the other way round?

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:47 pm

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:36 pm Even Biden has now called out Israel over there 'indiscriminate bombing' of Palestinian civillians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67699255

Slightly strange thing to do immediately after forcing a bill through to provide them with more ammo. Maybe do it the other way round?

Maybe the US Arms companies didn't give him a big enough bung.

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:40 pm Hopefully he'll also call for a pause in hostilities.

Totally unrealistic.

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:36 pm Even Biden has now called out Israel over there 'indiscriminate bombing' of Palestinian civillians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67699255

Tide is slowly changing. Amazing how the narrative of key players has changed so much in 2 months. People are slowly seeing what’s happening and changing tact but hopefully it’s not too late

You reckon the POTUS doesnt know whats happening?