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Re: Israel
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:40 am
by Hoover Attack
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm
CEB wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:29 pm
tl:dr; the argument isn’t that *any* depiction is antisemitic. It’s that memes, cartoons and the culture of alt right shitposting type sh*t means that plenty of people are happy to throw a bit of chaos into the mix by imbuing cultural artefacts with meaning, and when that happens, people *do* adopt them to tacitly signal belief, and others *do* fall into the trap of then seeing “hate symbols” everywhere.
The A-OK white supremacist thing was literally curated into a “hate signal” by alt right sh*t posters purely for the hell of it, until it became one.
Discourse around this stuff is sort of broken
I've seen palpable frustration expressed by some Jewish commentators online about how this trope (specifically the one about the plush toy, rather than the octopus in general) was being created live in front of them. Even something which isn't necessarily antisemitic or racist can become it if enough people claim it to be, whether well intended or not and I have no doubt that these toys are gonna be bought by people and used in a horrible way, which they never would have done but for the - at least partly - manufactured furore post-Greta (and now UC). Don't know how you stop this kind of thing from happening.
By calling it out as the nonsense it is when it first surfaces.
Re: Israel
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:42 am
by Proposition Joe
Easier said than done when doing so brings often further accusations of AS.
Re: Israel
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:31 am
by CEB
It’s basically large scale trolling, with part of the trolling being deliberately ensuring plenty of innocent people’s innocent behaviour can then be seen as suspicious, while those who *are* loading something with meaning can enjoy “triggering” people, laughing at the reaction.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:09 pm
by faldO
On the day before hostages are finally (hopefully) released, following days of complex negotiations, Kay Burley of Sky News asks Israeli government spokesman Eylon Levi whether 50 Israeli hostages for 150 Palestinian prisoners means that Israel values Palestinian lives lower than Israeli lives.
Meanwhile, 8 BBC reporters sent a letter to Al Jazeera claiming that the BBC's coverage of the Israel/Hamas war is biased towards Israel. They clearly don't seem to have watched or read their own news output.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:42 pm
by Tuffers#2
faldO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:09 pm
Meanwhile, 8 BBC reporters sent a letter to Al Jazeera claiming that the BBC's coverage of the Israel/Hamas war is biased towards Israel. They clearly don't seem to have watched or read their own news output.
Why would BBC reporters complain about their own coverage being biased ?
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:27 pm
by Proposition Joe
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:42 pm
faldO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:09 pm
Meanwhile, 8 BBC reporters sent a letter to Al Jazeera claiming that the BBC's coverage of the Israel/Hamas war is biased towards Israel. They clearly don't seem to have watched or read their own news output.
Why would BBC reporters complain about their own coverage being biased ?
Eh? You don't think people are ever unhappy with how their own organisation might operate?
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:22 pm
by Tuffers#2
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:27 pm
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:42 pm
faldO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:09 pm
Meanwhile, 8 BBC reporters sent a letter to Al Jazeera claiming that the BBC's coverage of the Israel/Hamas war is biased towards Israel. They clearly don't seem to have watched or read their own news output.
Why would BBC reporters complain about their own coverage being biased ?
Eh? You don't think people are ever unhappy with how their own organisation might operate?
Of course, but why tell al jazeera & why would faldo say " clearly don't seemed to have watched their own output " Al Jazeera arent pro Israel & seems an odd comment. Have I missed something glaringly obvious ?
Re: Israel
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:14 am
by Daily Express bot
Let’s give thanks for the pause in conflict in Israel and the release of some hostages, let’s hope and pray that this lull is more permanent and a peaceful settlement is achieved long term.
There is a huge Jewish solidarity March up town this weekend. Hopefully, it goes ahead peacefully.
Re: Israel
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:17 am
by Proposition Joe
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:22 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:27 pm
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:42 pm
Why would BBC reporters complain about their own coverage being biased ?
Eh? You don't think people are ever unhappy with how their own organisation might operate?
Of course, but why tell al jazeera & why would faldo say " clearly don't seemed to have watched their own output " Al Jazeera arent pro Israel & seems an odd comment. Have I missed something glaringly obvious ?
They've raised their concerns via another, likely to be sympathetic, news outlet. Without meaning to be rude, I'm not sure what the confusion is around this?
Re: Israel
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:47 am
by Hoover Attack
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:27 pm
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 9:42 pm
faldO wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:09 pm
Meanwhile, 8 BBC reporters sent a letter to Al Jazeera claiming that the BBC's coverage of the Israel/Hamas war is biased towards Israel. They clearly don't seem to have watched or read their own news output.
Why would BBC reporters complain about their own coverage being biased ?
Eh? You don't think people are ever unhappy with how their own organisation might operate?
Of course. But the Beeb love navel gazing as much as a dockland sex worker. There no way a reporter would go to Al Jazeera with this.
Re: Israel
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:38 pm
by Hoover Attack
Re: Israel
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:40 pm
by Tuffers#2
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:17 am
Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:22 pm
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:27 pm
Eh? You don't think people are ever unhappy with how their own organisation might operate?
Of course, but why tell al jazeera & why would faldo say " clearly don't seemed to have watched their own output " Al Jazeera arent pro Israel & seems an odd comment. Have I missed something glaringly obvious ?
They've raised their concerns via another, likely to be sympathetic, news outlet. Without meaning to be rude, I'm not sure what the confusion is around this?
No worries.
The only confusion is who was meant to be in need of watching themselves?
BBC or Al Jazeera ?
Re: Israel
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:07 pm
by Harlow
Both sides reporting a breach of the ceasefire by the other side this lunchtime but seems to be very key so hopefully they both really want to see a way forward
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:41 am
by Hoover Attack
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:20 pm
Also, another way of looking at things is this...
Out of the following two options, which one is most likely and realistic to achieve a ceasefire:
1. Demanding a ceasefire immediately from the current state of war.
Or
2. Negotiating a "pause" in hostilities to allow humanitarian aid. With these becoming more frequent and prolonged and normalised.
Anyone who genuinely believes in the first option... Well, enjoy your day out on Saturday.
Anyone who believes it is the second option, no matter how much they may wish it was the first... Well, that's pretty much the plan. And is what US Sec. Blinken is hinting at and is supported by most governments (and Labour).
Anyone seriously agitating for a Labour MP to publicly declare for the first option is either deluded or disingenuous in their true intentions and motivations.
The answer was 1.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:42 am
by Hoover Attack
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:34 pm
Ceasefire - there can be no such thing
There can.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:47 am
by Dunners
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:41 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:20 pm
Also, another way of looking at things is this...
Out of the following two options, which one is most likely and realistic to achieve a ceasefire:
1. Demanding a ceasefire immediately from the current state of war.
Or
2. Negotiating a "pause" in hostilities to allow humanitarian aid. With these becoming more frequent and prolonged and normalised.
Anyone who genuinely believes in the first option... Well, enjoy your day out on Saturday.
Anyone who believes it is the second option, no matter how much they may wish it was the first... Well, that's pretty much the plan. And is what US Sec. Blinken is hinting at and is supported by most governments (and Labour).
Anyone seriously agitating for a Labour MP to publicly declare for the first option is either deluded or disingenuous in their true intentions and motivations.
The answer was 1.
Err, it was 2 actually. Albeit the "pause" in hostilities was also to enable Israel to release prisoners in return for Hamas returning hostages. Hopefully the "pause" will continue long enough to be a full-on ceasefire.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:18 am
by Proposition Joe
Weird that everyone who very much insisted that a ceasefire was a stupid thing to ask for are all suddenly very happy to call the current 'pause in hostilities' a ceasefire.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:24 am
by Dunners
Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:18 am
Weird that everyone who very much insisted that a ceasefire was a stupid thing to ask for are all suddenly very happy to call the current 'pause in hostilities' a ceasefire.
It was about the politics of it, especially given the intransigence of the Israeli government. Calling for a ceasefire was less likely to achieve an actual ceasefire (due to one side not wanting to look weak) than calling for a pause in hostilities for "reasons", which could then go onto be a ceasefire. Which has proven to be the case.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:36 am
by Hoover Attack
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 5:34 pm
Hamas - They have stated their intent. Osama Hamdan (a Hamas official), in an interview with Al-Liwaa newspaper, stated that if they could they would repeat the October 7th attacks again. And again. Their aim is aligned with Iran in preventing Israel from being a 'natural entity' in the region. They will not accept peace or agree to a ceasefire.
They will.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:49 am
by Dunners
Bold statement that Hamas will accept peace based on a truce that has lasted seven days. So far. But hopefully you're right.
You'll forgive me for not ditching my crypto stock just yet and lumping it all with Paddy Power on this being the beginning of a new era of peace, cooperation and optimism throughout the region.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:54 am
by Hoover Attack
I'm not sure anyone is claiming that this has brought about an end to hostilities forever......
Just that left leaning people should have been calling for the bombing and fighting to stop.
(I meant Sirkier, not you - I've accepted you're a lost cause and have gone over to the dark side).
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:58 am
by Long slender neck
I mean, if you're getting battered of course you'll accept a 'ceasefire', for now.
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:59 am
by Long slender neck
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:54 am
I'm not sure anyone is claiming that this has brought about an end to hostilities forever......
Just that left leaning people should have been calling for the bombing and fighting to stop.
(I meant Sirkier, not you - I've accepted you're a lost cause and have gone over to the dark side).
Wont someone please think of the terrorists?
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:03 am
by Hoover Attack
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:58 am
I mean, if you're getting battered of course you'll accept a 'ceasefire',
for now.
Tens of thousands of civilians murdered - mostly women and children - and you opt for 'battered'?
Re: Israel
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:05 am
by BoniO
Long slender neck wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:59 am
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:54 am
I'm not sure anyone is claiming that this has brought about an end to hostilities forever......
Just that left leaning people should have been calling for the bombing and fighting to stop.
(I meant Sirkier, not you - I've accepted you're a lost cause and have gone over to the dark side).
Wont someone please think of the terrorists?
Which side are they on?