Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:34 am
But I don’t think the average person at the school gates would say a comment like that without the constant reminder that Criticism of Israel = criticism of jews and in turn, criticism of jews = criticism of Israel.

Similar thing happened with isis and Muslims.

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:35 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:34 am
But I don’t think the average person at the school gates would say a comment like that without the constant reminder that Criticism of Israel = criticism of jews and in turn, criticism of jews = criticism of Israel.

Similar thing happened with isis and Muslims.

It's not hard to say does any of the money go to israel rather than does the money go to the jews (and I suspect the stereotype of jews and money plays a part in this instance). The problem is that most people are thick and ignorant. I've said before history will look back on the period since the turn of the century and will see it as a time where humans as a whole have gone backwards in intelligence.

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:50 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:35 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:34 am
But I don’t think the average person at the school gates would say a comment like that without the constant reminder that Criticism of Israel = criticism of jews and in turn, criticism of jews = criticism of Israel.

Similar thing happened with isis and Muslims.

It's not hard to say does any of the money go to israel rather than does the money go to the jews (and I suspect the stereotype of jews and money plays a part in this instance). The problem is that most people are thick and ignorant. I've said before history will look back on the period since the turn of the century and will see it as a time where humans as a whole have gone backwards in intelligence.

Agree with all of that. But I just wonder if the constant framing of anti-israel as anti-jew has only enforced anti-semitism in thicko's.

Dunners - what was your response, out of interest?

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:55 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:50 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:35 pm

It's not hard to say does any of the money go to israel rather than does the money go to the jews (and I suspect the stereotype of jews and money plays a part in this instance). The problem is that most people are thick and ignorant. I've said before history will look back on the period since the turn of the century and will see it as a time where humans as a whole have gone backwards in intelligence.

Agree with all of that. But I just wonder if the constant framing of anti-israel as anti-jew has only enforced anti-semitism in thicko's.

Dunners - what was your response, out of interest?

If you are anti Israel than you are anti Jew, it is a convenient get out clause for antisemitism.

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:50 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:35 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:34 am
But I don’t think the average person at the school gates would say a comment like that without the constant reminder that Criticism of Israel = criticism of jews and in turn, criticism of jews = criticism of Israel.

Similar thing happened with isis and Muslims.

It's not hard to say does any of the money go to israel rather than does the money go to the jews (and I suspect the stereotype of jews and money plays a part in this instance). The problem is that most people are thick and ignorant. I've said before history will look back on the period since the turn of the century and will see it as a time where humans as a whole have gone backwards in intelligence.

Agree with all of that. But I just wonder if the constant framing of anti-israel as anti-jew has only enforced anti-semitism in thicko's.

Dunners - what was your response, out of interest?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:34 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:55 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:50 am

Agree with all of that. But I just wonder if the constant framing of anti-israel as anti-jew has only enforced anti-semitism in thicko's.

Dunners - what was your response, out of interest?

If you are anti Israel than you are anti Jew, it is a convenient get out clause for antisemitism.

Are you stating RTW is Anti-Himself ?

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:54 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:34 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:55 am

If you are anti Israel than you are anti Jew, it is a convenient get out clause for antisemitism.

Are you stating RTW is Anti-Himself ?

No I’m not.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:12 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:54 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:34 am

Are you stating RTW is Anti-Himself ?

No I’m not.

You said "If you are anti Israel you are anti jew, It is a convenient get out clause for antisemetism". RTW is Jewish, so why would you make that comment to him ?

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:19 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:12 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:54 am

No I’m not.

You said "If you are anti Israel you are anti jew, It is a convenient get out clause for antisemetism". RTW is Jewish, so why would you make that comment to him ?

Being Jewish , he is empowered to criticise the Israeli Government and his arguments will have more credibility unlike many who mask their antisemitism.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:28 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:19 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:12 am

You said "If you are anti Israel you are anti jew, It is a convenient get out clause for antisemetism". RTW is Jewish, so why would you make that comment to him ?

Being Jewish , he is empowered to criticise the Israeli Government and his arguments will have more credibility unlike many who mask their antisemitism.

Criticising Israeli policy on palestine is not anti semetic. Saying Israel has no right to exist is Anti Semetic, quoted from Anne Frank.org


https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/ant ... tisemitic/

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:41 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:28 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:19 am

Being Jewish , he is empowered to criticise the Israeli Government and his arguments will have more credibility unlike many who mask their antisemitism.

Criticising Israeli policy on palestine is not anti semetic. Saying Israel has no right to exist is Anti Semetic, quoted from Anne Frank.org


https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/ant ... tisemitic/

A very interesting article, thanks for posting it. However I think it is not as clear cut as you suggest , there are fine lines that are often crossed.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:49 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:41 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:28 am

Criticising Israeli policy on palestine is not anti semetic. Saying Israel has no right to exist is Anti Semetic, quoted from Anne Frank.org


https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/ant ... tisemitic/

A very interesting article, thanks for posting it. However I think it is not as clear cut as you suggest , there are fine lines that are often crossed.

Not by me & certainly not by RTW. I suggest he has every right to critique Israel.

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:46 am

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:50 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:35 pm

It's not hard to say does any of the money go to israel rather than does the money go to the jews (and I suspect the stereotype of jews and money plays a part in this instance). The problem is that most people are thick and ignorant. I've said before history will look back on the period since the turn of the century and will see it as a time where humans as a whole have gone backwards in intelligence.

Agree with all of that. But I just wonder if the constant framing of anti-israel as anti-jew has only enforced anti-semitism in thicko's.

Dunners - what was your response, out of interest?

Firstly, when you say "constant framing of anti-israel as anti-jew", I'm taking that to mean a particular media strategy to discredit elements of the Labour left, that many of us have interpreted in the build-up to the 2019 general election and since. But that doesn't mean that antisemitism has not been, and continues to be, a problem.

Regarding the anecdote I provided, I doubt that any of the people displaying openly anti-Semitic rhetoric in the school were influenced by this media strategy. It's a largely migrant community, which is not as immersed in the political and media mainstream that we may be.

Most of the children who attend this school will have parents who have arrived in the UK only in the last few years, and are of a variety of backgrounds (Uighur, Georgian, Iranian, Syrian, Pakistani, Albanian, North African all seem to be common at the moment). A large proportion of these children and their families are registered as staying in local hotels while they await decisions on their claims to reside in the UK. I doubt the anti-Momentum campaign was on their radar.

But the media strategy certainly will not have helped things, even if it's to provide cover. There are thickos everywhere in all walks of life and there does seem to be a lot of them feeling emboldened right now.

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:10 pm
You didnt answer my question though...

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:22 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:10 pm
You didnt answer my question though...

Genuinely not trying to be evasive, but.. what was the question?

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:47 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:22 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:10 pm
You didnt answer my question though...

Genuinely not trying to be evasive, but.. what was the question?

What was your response when the parent said they didn’t want anything going to the Jews?

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:59 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:47 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:22 pm

Genuinely not trying to be evasive, but.. what was the question?

What was your response when the parent said they didn’t want anything going to the Jews?

Ah. As I mentioned, "I know someone who works in a school...." I wont go into detail but I wouldn't reference this for anyone else unless I fully believed them.

For what it's worth, their response was to not react in the moment, but instead report it to the office manager and Head Teacher. The school then issued communication to all parents making it clear that it was a safe and inclusive environment for everybody, and any such language would not be tolerated and would be reported to the police.

This seemed to work on the surface. However, it's worth noting that the total raised in the cake sale for charity (Save the Children) was less than £50. When a previous sale was organised following the earthquake in Turkey, the school raise over £300. Obviously we cannot say exactly why this difference occurred, but it does hint at the strength of feeling on the matter.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:35 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:59 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:47 pm

What was your response when the parent said they didn’t want anything going to the Jews?

Ah. As I mentioned, "I know someone who works in a school...." I wont go into detail but I wouldn't reference this for anyone else unless I fully believed them.

For what it's worth, their response was to not react in the moment, but instead report it to the office manager and Head Teacher. The school then issued communication to all parents making it clear that it was a safe and inclusive environment for everybody, and any such language would not be tolerated and would be reported to the police.

This seemed to work on the surface. However, it's worth noting that the total raised in the cake sale for charity (Save the Children) was less than £50. When a previous sale was organised following the earthquake in Turkey, the school raise over £300. Obviously we cannot say exactly why this difference occurred, but it does hint at the strength of feeling on the matter.

Maybe people like cake , especially home made?

Not exactly scientific conditions?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:11 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:35 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:59 pm

Ah. As I mentioned, "I know someone who works in a school...." I wont go into detail but I wouldn't reference this for anyone else unless I fully believed them.

For what it's worth, their response was to not react in the moment, but instead report it to the office manager and Head Teacher. The school then issued communication to all parents making it clear that it was a safe and inclusive environment for everybody, and any such language would not be tolerated and would be reported to the police.

This seemed to work on the surface. However, it's worth noting that the total raised in the cake sale for charity (Save the Children) was less than £50. When a previous sale was organised following the earthquake in Turkey, the school raise over £300. Obviously we cannot say exactly why this difference occurred, but it does hint at the strength of feeling on the matter.

Maybe people like cake , especially home made?

Not exactly scientific conditions?

£300 for one cake sale & £50 for another cake sale & you reply
Maybe people like Cake ?

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:43 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:11 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:35 pm

Maybe people like cake , especially home made?

Not exactly scientific conditions?

£300 for one cake sale & £50 for another cake sale & you reply
Maybe people like Cake ?

Well , having been at cake sales by chance , I have often bought any left unsold and just given them out to family and friends. I like cake but have to watch my weight. Had I not been there , they would have not been sold so it is pure chance in some situations that variations occur. It is often too easy and dangerous to draw firm conclusions without solid proof that racism or antisemitism is the reason for less support, in my opinion anyhow.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:09 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:43 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:11 pm

£300 for one cake sale & £50 for another cake sale & you reply
Maybe people like Cake ?

Well , having been at cake sales by chance , I have often bought any left unsold and just given them out to family and friends. I like cake but have to watch my weight. Had I not been there , they would have not been sold so it is pure chance in some situations that variations occur. It is often too easy and dangerous to draw firm conclusions without solid proof that racism or antisemitism is the reason for less support, in my opinion anyhow.

So say that then, instead of some people like cake. It seems sometimes you write stuff just for the sake of writing some stuff without any connection to the topic being discussed.

Long slender neck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:17 pm White House says it has intelligence that Hamas was using Gaza hospital to run military operations
The White House has said it had its own intelligence supporting Israel claims that Hamas was using al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City to run its military operations, and probably to store weapons.

“We have information that confirms that Hamas is using that particular hospital for a command and control node”, the White House’s national security spokesperson, John Kirby, told reporters aboard Air Force One:

They have stored weapons there and they’re prepared to respond to an Israeli military operation against that facility.

He added:

That is a war crime.