Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Oisin Hardy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:12 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:58 am

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:27 am You missed your chance to be taken seriously in this thread when you evaded the offer to discuss like adults

Sorry dad.

Basically Max you have been kicked out of Trans Studies by the teacher, now go stand outside while the rest have to listen to CEB obsess over this subject.

It's my own fault mate. I broke the rules of punch down debate club. No-one to blame but myself. I deserve to be punished.

Oisin Hardy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:12 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:58 am

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:27 am You missed your chance to be taken seriously in this thread when you evaded the offer to discuss like adults

Sorry dad.

Basically Max you have been kicked out of Trans Studies by the teacher, now go stand outside while the rest have to listen to CEB obsess over this subject.

Time for CEB to leave this topic, he has long overstayed on this thread and to quote the famous speech by Oliver Cromwell
''It is not fit that you should sit here any longer. You have sat here too long for any good you have been doing lately … In the name of God go.“

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:24 am

Oisin Hardy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:12 am

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:58 am

Sorry dad.

Basically Max you have been kicked out of Trans Studies by the teacher, now go stand outside while the rest have to listen to CEB obsess over this subject.

It's my own fault mate. I broke the rules of punch down debate club. No-one to blame but myself. I deserve to be punished.

Don't let CEB know about your need to be punished, his obsession with gimp porn will kick in.

Whoops. This thread has accidently dropped down onto page 2. Can't be having that, so here's an interview clip.

I was tempted to post this, but the weird thing is - maybe I like a challenge? - I resisted because it’s pretty much impossible for a reasonable person to watch any bit of this clip and think “yep, Stonewall certainly have a coherent position on the issues here, and they are absolutely transparent about their aims and about using plain language to ensure that they are understood”, and I think I maybe prefer discussing/debating these issues with people based on how they understand the issues, rather than just pointing at stonewall and saying “this is mad!” (I’m more interested in how casually some people have adopted beliefs they know, really, to be mad, and in how their other political beliefs preclude them from thinking about how mad one of the left’s favourite causes at the moment actually is)

It’s a great illustration of what I mean when I say that mainstream trans organisations are the problem, not fanatical individual trans people. It’s wild that this guy here is kind of trying to come across as more reasonable than when Nancy Kelly told lesbians that not seeing male people as potential sexual partners was like sexual racism.

Its only a small part of the Left who pursue it as their favourite cause. But all of the Left believe Trans rights are Human rights, even you must believe that.

The non identity obsessed Left are focusing on issues like the cost of living, NHS waiting lists, education, public services, workers struggles etc. HTH.

Once again, you had your chance to discuss this with me in good faith, you decided instead to be evasive about it. But yes, thought terminating circular statements like “trans rights are human rights” is exactly the sort of meaningless nonsense that useful idiots like yourself have been taken in by as you’ve happily allowed yourself to be told that trans rights activism has no negative impact on women.

Of course the offer is still open, if you are willing to do what I asked and answer a couple of questions honestly and openly without evasion. Deal?

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:20 pm Once again, you had your chance to discuss this with me in good faith, you decided instead to be evasive about it. But yes, thought terminating circular statements like “trans rights are human rights” is exactly the sort of meaningless nonsense that useful idiots like yourself have been taken in by as you’ve happily allowed yourself to be told that trans rights activism has no negative impact on women.

So trans people are not entitled to the same human rights the rest of society enjoy. Extraordinary.

It's impossible to act in good faith with an obsessive who can never be wrong and who doesn't acknowledge uncomfortable points.

Like I said way back weeks ago on this very thread my position is that everyone's rights should be protected. What are you suggesting should be done to protect against the negative impact on women. Be specific when identifying the negative impacts.

What are the human rights trans people don’t enjoy?

Once again, you are demonstrably misrepresenting and it is boring. I am perfectly willing and able to clarify exactly what I mean if, as I asked you before, you will answer a couple of questions fully and in good faith.

The reason I ask this of you is because you have made it clear that at times you are actively on a wind up. I will fully engage with everything this post says, and answer fully any questions you may have about why I’m comfortable with my positions on this, if you do me the courtesy of first answering fully a couple of questions that will, in my view, establish grounds for respectful communication.

Or you can continue to provoke eyerolls by attributing opinions to me that I don’t hold. I don’t mind, because as you will have seen, as this thread has evolved, you’ve found yourself out on a limb, because you seem to not fully understand what you’re aligning yourself with.

I have two questions ready to go for you Max. Are you willing to answer them?

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:39 pm I have two questions ready to go for you Max. Are you willing to answer them?

I will try my best. Who will be marking my work?

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:44 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:39 pm I have two questions ready to go for you Max. Are you willing to answer them?

I will try my best. Who will be marking my work?

Ideally we’ll be having a conversation where we are both sincere, and both listening. I won’t be marking your work, but I’ll probably comment on your answers, and be open to further discussion and/or moving onto your questions for me, which I will take seriously rather than shrugging them off as nonsense.
Can’t say fairer than that.
Ready?

Fire away big chap.

Righto, let's get the quiz underway.

Q1 - Which of these photos is the winner?



or

OK.

1: you said that you agree with me on some aspects of my criticisms of trans activism. Can you summarise the specific areas you’re aware of where you disagree with the *substance* of my critique of trans activism, and the reason why you disagree. For the purposes of this, we are not focused on who may or may not agree with me, just on the substance of my arguments.

2: relatively early in our exchanges on this thread, I posted the text of a blog post written by a left wing bisexual woman, whose objections to trans activism are most closely aligned with mine, and asked you to read it - you declined, dismissing it as straw man polemic aimed at demonising a vulnerable minority. (I could understand if you declined on the basis it was too long, though). The author of the blog post actively stands against the “GC” faction that has made unsavoury alliances with conservative right wingers on the (understandable, but in my opinion wrong headed and short sighted) basis that the threat to women’s rights from trans activism is more pressing than traditional left v right politics. She, and other left wing feminists, fight to be heard above the clamour from trans activists on one side, and traditional conservatives with moral panic on the other side.

My question is this: considering that you declined to read her feminist critique of trans activism, which left wing feminist women’s critiques of trans activism have you actually read?, and if you haven’t read them or don’t consider them worth reading, why do you consider them to be less relevant to this debate than the right wing conservatives you accuse me of being aligned with (despite my not holding any opinion on the gender debate that could accurately be described as right wing)?


The second question is a bit long, but is pertinent as the most common intervention you have in this thread is to tell me how aligned with the right wing I am.

Thanks

CEB wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 2:04 pm OK.

1: you said that you agree with me on some aspects of my criticisms of trans activism. Can you summarise the specific areas you’re aware of where you disagree with the *substance* of my critique of trans activism, and the reason why you disagree. For the purposes of this, we are not focused on who may or may not agree with me, just on the substance of my arguments.

2: relatively early in our exchanges on this thread, I posted the text of a blog post written by a left wing bisexual woman, whose objections to trans activism are most closely aligned with mine, and asked you to read it - you declined, dismissing it as straw man polemic aimed at demonising a vulnerable minority. (I could understand if you declined on the basis it was too long, though). The author of the blog post actively stands against the “GC” faction that has made unsavoury alliances with conservative right wingers on the (understandable, but in my opinion wrong headed and short sighted) basis that the threat to women’s rights from trans activism is more pressing than traditional left v right politics. She, and other left wing feminists, fight to be heard above the clamour from trans activists on one side, and traditional conservatives with moral panic on the other side.

My question is this: considering that you declined to read her feminist critique of trans activism, which left wing feminist women’s critiques of trans activism have you actually read?, and if you haven’t read them or don’t consider them worth reading, why do you consider them to be less relevant to this debate than the right wing conservatives you accuse me of being aligned with (despite my not holding any opinion on the gender debate that could accurately be described as right wing)?


The second question is a bit long, but is pertinent as the most common intervention you have in this thread is to tell me how aligned with the right wing I am.

Thanks

Crivvens. It's as I suspected, screeds of words asking me to go back and read screeds more.

I'm working at the moment and Fridays are busy so dont have time inbetween jobs to properly consider the questions or my replies.

However, in the spirit of the deal offered I will give the questions due consideration and will reply in good faith ASAP but unlikely to be before Monday as beering it tonight, grandson duty Sat, BBQ Sunday.

If it helps put your mind at rest I don't really think you are of the far right.

An answer after the weekend is fine. For the record, I’m not asking you to read anything, I’m asking you a question based on the fact it seems you haven’t read anything by people I actually consider myself aligned with.

If you like, I’ll address the issues you raised with me above, in a similar spirit of communication

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:17 pm Its only a small part of the Left who pursue it as their favourite cause. But all of the Left believe Trans rights are Human rights, even you must believe that.

The non identity obsessed Left are focusing on issues like the cost of living, NHS waiting lists, education, public services, workers struggles etc. HTH.

I agree that it’s a small portion of the left who pursue it as their favourite cause. A lot of the *support* for trans rights activism comes from people who don’t support it as their favourite cause, but who instinctively support it despite not fully understanding what they are supporting.


“Trans rights are human rights - even you must believe that”
The phrase “trans rights are human rights” is a rhetorical device, not a statement that reflects the actual stakes of the debate.

For clarity, if the statement that you think “even I”, renowned transphobe, should agree with is “people who identify as trans are entitled to the same human rights as everyone else”l then my answer is “of course I believe that, and I don’t think I’ve ever said anything that contradicts that”.

However, since trans activism actually is *not* demanding to have the *same* set of rights as everyone else, but *new* rights that are *specific* to trans people, what the statement actually means is more like this:

“Rights demanded by trans people should be enshrined in law”

And that is something that I do not agree with, because the rights demanded by the mainstream form of trans activism have a demonstrable impact on existing rights, and because I have sincerely held objections to the underlying beliefs of trans activism, on the basis that those beliefs are regressive, sexist and harmful when used as the basis for how society should organise itself.

I would love to be able to join my erstwhile left wing natural allies in arguing for the things you mention - I have a long track record of focusing on those things, and in working in public sector organisations supporting vulnerable people.

But because I consider the left to have got this very, very wrong, and becauseI am not short sighted enough to think “phew, the Tories are sort of vaguely right about trans stuff, though for the wrong reasons”, it is important to me that the argument against trans activism is won from the left, not the right.
Which is why I will happily admit to finding it extremely frustrating that despite the long thought, the careful reading and the wrestling with my conscience on this issue, despite being shut down by some left wing people I admired when I said, years ago, “the Tories will have a field day with this if the left don’t get a handle on it” the very fact that I care about this stuff (for reasons I’ve gone into) is routinely dismissed out of hand as “enabling the right”.

Dunners wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:45 pm Whoops. This thread has accidently dropped down onto page 2. Can't be having that, so here's an interview clip.

It’s funny that, batshit crazy, evasive and misleading as he is in that clip, trans rights activists are angry at him for not being on board with their aims fully enough

Strange but true, I saw about this on GB news last night.............
Transgender model elected new Miss Netherlands
Rikkie Kollé's victory, a first in the kingdom, paves the way for a transgender person to compete in Belgium's next beauty contest.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international ... 823_4.html

Nothing strange about it. Beauty pageants are outmoded, regressive, sexist crap that celebrate and reward exaggerated notions of femininity. Male people identifying as women winning them is just about the most predictable thing to happen, and doesn’t even really register as novel, or particularly interesting. Newsflash: some male people who demand to be perceived as female seek to do their femininity competitively, and some organisations that value femininity above female people as humans are very happy to show they’re not irrelevant by validating a current cause.
Yawn.

Does this mean I could have entered the Lovely Girls contest all along?

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:11 am Does this mean I could have entered the Lovely Girls contest all along?

If you look the part as a ''Lovely Girl'' then the answer seems to be, well if it pleases you then YES, why not !