Independent Leyton Orient Forum

In the end, this will be sorted with a peace agreement, so why not do it now and end the bloodshed.
The current government of Israel want Israel to be a Jewish state only for Jews. They want rid of Palestinians, and non Jews.
If we have a two state solution they will have that.
Two states, both with secure borders.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 2:21 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 1:40 pm
One of the most stupid things ever been written on here. Jews are the only minority who have their definitions of racism questioned, why is that? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Cheers for telling a Jew what I deem as anti-Semitic though.

That isn’t what I said. Answer the question. Why do Jewish people get questioned on definitions but no other minority are?

I don’t think that’s true. What have you based that on? Assume you have some facts and figures after telling a Jew they should be ashamed of themselves.
And what do you mean by Jewish? Are we all the same? By looking at my post you should be able to understand that not all Jews have the same definition. I see a stark difference on anti Zionism and anti semitic. The fact that there’s been a deliberate conflation of the two to serve certain agendas (mainly political). And we are now seeing the dangerous output of that.

A lot of people see Israel and Jews as connected and aligned. That means that I could get attacked for being Jewish because there’s an assumption I’m a Zionist too.

It's a point I made earlier in this thread but the language around Zionism matters a lot. Plenty of left wing Jews and israeli's are pro Palestinian rights, pro two state solution, anti government. They are also Zionists in the sense they believe in it's right to exist as a primarily (but not exclusively , as shown by the presence of Israeli arabs in the last government and presence of migrant workers from elsewhere) Jewish state.

Obviously that has deep roots in history but allowing 'zionist' at become a term of abuse or an accusation plays into the same dynamic you're talking about. Zionist becomes an innately bad thing, with no shades of grey that offer a path towards peaceful Zionism that respects Palestinian rights - which is the only long term settlement that works. Antisemitic terrorism is justified by the likes of Hamas on the grounds of it being antizionist actions. Some people on the left prop this sh*t up unfortunately.

I'd also put it this way - antisemitism has existed far longer than antizionism. So when we see scenes very redolent of the past, crowds storming buildings and seeking Jews to kill, I find it hard to believe this is simply because the Israeli state and Israeli settlers can behave appallingly and conflate state criticism with racism.

This isn't me trying to tell you how to feel as a Jewish person btw, in case it comes across that way. Just have several Jewish friends who are devastated at the way they are being talked about and how their families (Zionists) in Israel are being conflated with the extremist wingnuts who they also despise. I know they would feel uncomfortable going on these pro Palestine marches because of the uncomfortably high number of people on them who'd potentially react nastily to a Jewish presence.

Mental https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -ceasefire

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:27 pm In the end, this will be sorted with a peace agreement, so why not do it now and end the bloodshed.
The current government of Israel want Israel to be a Jewish state only for Jews. They want rid of Palestinians, and non Jews.
If we have a two state solution they will have that.
Two states, both with secure borders.

Because Hamas must be defeated for any chance of peace. Or "the demilitarisation of gaza" perhaps?

Defeating Hamas is one thing. Killing & destroying innocent lives just increases the next hamas recruits.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 12:04 am Defeating Hamas is one thing. Killing & destroying innocent lives just increases the next hamas recruits.

I don't think it makes much difference, Palestine has been indoctrinating kids at school to hate Israel for decades. There will never be peace there. It's just not possible with 2 diametrically opposed lunatic societies.

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 2:21 pm

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 1:40 pm
One of the most stupid things ever been written on here. Jews are the only minority who have their definitions of racism questioned, why is that? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Cheers for telling a Jew what I deem as anti-Semitic though.

That isn’t what I said. Answer the question. Why do Jewish people get questioned on definitions but no other minority are?

Because anti-sematism and anti-zionism are two different things. For example you can hold the view that jews should be allowed to live wherever they like in freedom of persecution but they shouldn't have been handed over a large tract of land in the middle east.

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 12:40 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 2:21 pm
Cheers for telling a Jew what I deem as anti-Semitic though.

That isn’t what I said. Answer the question. Why do Jewish people get questioned on definitions but no other minority are?

Because anti-sematism and anti-zionism are two different things. For example you can hold the view that jews should be allowed to live wherever they like in freedom of persecution but they shouldn't have been handed over a large tract of land in the middle east.

Where do you suggest would have been better?

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:17 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 12:40 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm
That isn’t what I said. Answer the question. Why do Jewish people get questioned on definitions but no other minority are?

Because anti-sematism and anti-zionism are two different things. For example you can hold the view that jews should be allowed to live wherever they like in freedom of persecution but they shouldn't have been handed over a large tract of land in the middle east.

Where do you suggest would have been better?

Eastern Russia

Milano wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:21 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:17 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 12:40 am

Because anti-sematism and anti-zionism are two different things. For example you can hold the view that jews should be allowed to live wherever they like in freedom of persecution but they shouldn't have been handed over a large tract of land in the middle east.

Where do you suggest would have been better?

Eastern Russia

They have no connection, may have said Wales

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:14 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:03 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:50 pm I'm sorry this past year Israel killed more than any year since 2000. since 2000 11,500 Palestinians were killed by Israel, 2200 Israelis died in the same period. Israel has breeched UNHRC on 44 occasions Human rights since 2005. Israel is still in breech of UN resolution 242. 56 years after it was drafted.

I wouldn't listen too much to the UNHCR, it's not exactly impartial when it comes to its dealing with Israel.

UNHRC is the bastion that sorts those who do wrong to Humanity. It is exactly who should be listened to.

Iran to Chair UN Human Rights Forum on Thursday, Sparking Protests
https://unwatch.org/iran-to-chair-un-hu ... -protests/

Iranian teenager dies a month after alleged altercation with morality police on Tehran metro
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 37506.html

faldO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:59 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:14 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:03 pm
I wouldn't listen too much to the UNHCR, it's not exactly impartial when it comes to its dealing with Israel.

UNHRC is the bastion that sorts those who do wrong to Humanity. It is exactly who should be listened to.

Iran to Chair UN Human Rights Forum on Thursday, Sparking Protests
https://unwatch.org/iran-to-chair-un-hu ... -protests/

Iranian teenager dies a month after alleged altercation with morality police on Tehran metro
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 37506.html

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

lots of calls for Israel to stop defending there own people.
just a thought did England not travel thousands of miles
to protect the Falkland isles people. just saying.

In almost 2 decades of Boardin', I genuinely think that's the thickest comparison I've ever seen.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:27 pm In the end, this will be sorted with a peace agreement, so why not do it now and end the bloodshed.
The current government of Israel want Israel to be a Jewish state only for Jews. They want rid of Palestinians, and non Jews.
If we have a two state solution they will have that.
Two states, both with secure borders.

Problem is every time there a peace agreement Hamas breaks it . For example who's just broken the last peace deal . Your second statement is untrue . There are 1.2 million muslims living in Isreal and under no apartheid . Thirdly Hamas doesn't want a two state solution ,they only want one with the destruction of Isreal and all the jews killed . Hamas have said that themselves countless. of times .

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:17 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 12:40 am

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm
That isn’t what I said. Answer the question. Why do Jewish people get questioned on definitions but no other minority are?

Because anti-sematism and anti-zionism are two different things. For example you can hold the view that jews should be allowed to live wherever they like in freedom of persecution but they shouldn't have been handed over a large tract of land in the middle east.

Where do you suggest would have been better?

In an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary, jews should be safe to form communities anywhere in the world. I appreciate places in Israel hold special significance, but that's not unique to Jews so the land would be better in secular hands

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:20 am In almost 2 decades of Boardin', I genuinely think that's the thickest comparison I've ever seen.

Hang around - someone will be along soon enough to top that one.

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:27 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:17 am

Adz wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 12:40 am

Because anti-sematism and anti-zionism are two different things. For example you can hold the view that jews should be allowed to live wherever they like in freedom of persecution but they shouldn't have been handed over a large tract of land in the middle east.

Where do you suggest would have been better?

In an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary, jews should be safe to form communities anywhere in the world. I appreciate places in Israel hold special significance, but that's not unique to Jews so the land would be better in secular hands

It would be a utopian world but everyone should get along with everyone else, respect and tolerance only seems to apply to certain religions sadly.

Whatever happens going forward in the region, the indiscriminate killing of people and thousands of innocent children will be looked upon as a disgusting stain in humanity. Some people need hindsight and some people don’t but the way our world leaders are acting is shameful and makes me sick to my stomach

Can't concentrate on this thread any more, too triggered by the memory of when the RAF carpet bombed Buenos Aires.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:08 am

faldO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:59 am

Joe315 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:14 pm

UNHRC is the bastion that sorts those who do wrong to Humanity. It is exactly who should be listened to.

Iran to Chair UN Human Rights Forum on Thursday, Sparking Protests
https://unwatch.org/iran-to-chair-un-hu ... -protests/

Iranian teenager dies a month after alleged altercation with morality police on Tehran metro
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 37506.html

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

Is this an example of U.N Incompetence alongside the U.N helping in creating the state of Israel ? or is it the U.N is capable of good & bad decisions ? or something else ?

Joe315 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 4:35 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:08 am

faldO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:59 am

Iran to Chair UN Human Rights Forum on Thursday, Sparking Protests
https://unwatch.org/iran-to-chair-un-hu ... -protests/

Iranian teenager dies a month after alleged altercation with morality police on Tehran metro
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 37506.html

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

Is this an example of U.N Incompetence alongside the U.N helping in creating the state of Israel ? or is it the U.N is capable of good & bad decisions ? or something else ?

It's ridiculous, but isn't it just one of those rotational roles within the UN, whereby everybody gets a go?

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:30 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 4:35 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:08 am

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

Is this an example of U.N Incompetence alongside the U.N helping in creating the state of Israel ? or is it the U.N is capable of good & bad decisions ? or something else ?

It's ridiculous, but isn't it just one of those rotational roles within the UN, whereby everybody gets a go?

Yes, I guess not everyone knows.

Joe315 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:47 pm

Dunners wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:30 pm

Joe315 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2023 4:35 pm

Is this an example of U.N Incompetence alongside the U.N helping in creating the state of Israel ? or is it the U.N is capable of good & bad decisions ? or something else ?

It's ridiculous, but isn't it just one of those rotational roles within the UN, whereby everybody gets a go?

Yes, I guess not everyone knows.

Perhaps reading the article from UN Watch might help enlighten you...

EU foreign affairs chief Josep Borrell defended Iran’s appointment as a matter of regional rotation, “in consistency with established UN procedures.”

But UN Watch research shows in fact that the Asian group, to which Iran belongs, has held the position four times in the past six years, denying rotations to several other regional groups.