Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:20 pm

RientO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:17 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:56 am Interesting and bold commitment from one of the big players in the industry I work in.
Aviva closing down office space and create a mixed model of people mainly wfh by the looks of it. Indications my firm will do something similar, fingers crossed.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc ... k-55738780

I wonder what will happen to all the closed down office space. My company spent a fortune on what now looks to be a redundant campus in the north west. They were offering people less than generous relocation packages to relocate (incorpoarting pay cuts). I plan to retire next year, but if I can work from sunnier climes, I may reconsider.

It will be interesting for sure. I’ve considered having a 4 days week for a while but it was never financially possible. Now, if I wfh full time the money I’m saving on travel and food means I can probably do it without changing my lifestyle.

As for office space I reckon they’ll be a lots of rentable, bright, exciting, spec’ed out rental offices for companies to use for things like big project meetings, workshops, etc...that don’t work well remotely.
But that’s probably a fraction. Housing maybe, but then do you need more housing in cities if there’s no offices there?

Looking forward to seeing where this goes

My wife works for one of the big players in both office and retail. They are far more worried about the retail sector and the online boom.

When it comes to good quality office space, which they provide, they believe the demand will always be there. There are plenty of large corporates that still need workforces to come together on a regular basis for the cross-fertilisation of ideas and the speeding up of certain events by being close at hand. What that will probably mean is that the second and third grade office space markets will be squeezed by both the first grade and the temporary office space that's on offer from the likes of Wework and Regus. The demand for temporary hubs to meet and talk will grow.

One thing is for sure. Wfh is here to stay.

EastDerehamO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 pm As also said in above post I’m similarly reconsidering perhaps putting in for reduced hours in run in to retirement, will see how the new normal maps out first, whenever it may arrive.

Mrs. RientO now works part time, but in reality she works a lot harder in the reduced hours so she doesn't gain that much.

One thing to consider if you do go part time is that redundancy payments can also be reduced. And if it costs less to make you redundant, you can be at more risk. I take unpaid leave in addition to paid leave from time to time when I need a long break. Did plan 4 unpaid weeks off in 2020 until Covid happened.

I plan to retire next year, but will work full time until I resign as I don't want to lose out if there are jobs losses in the interim. Not telling anyone at work though!

LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:14 pm My wife works for one of the big players in both office and retail. They are far more worried about the retail sector and the online boom.

When it comes to good quality office space, which they provide, they believe the demand will always be there. There are plenty of large corporates that still need workforces to come together on a regular basis for the cross-fertilisation of ideas and the speeding up of certain events by being close at hand. What that will probably mean is that the second and third grade office space markets will be squeezed by both the first grade and the temporary office space that's on offer from the likes of Wework and Regus. The demand for temporary hubs to meet and talk will grow.

One thing is for sure. Wfh is here to stay.

Our teams are co-located on three UK sites, a site in India and a site in the US. I have only ever met my line manager who only came into the office once a month. Pre-Covid I was told to work from home more, even though I had worked from home on 70 days in the previous year. As much as I would like to collaborate in person, the reality would be flying to India to do it.

So I forsee less need for office space no matter how good it is. Some core departments will need office space, but 80-90% of our company is working remotely and can continue to do so.

Agree about retail. Impossible to see how it will recover.

LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:14 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:20 pm

RientO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:17 pm

I wonder what will happen to all the closed down office space. My company spent a fortune on what now looks to be a redundant campus in the north west. They were offering people less than generous relocation packages to relocate (incorpoarting pay cuts). I plan to retire next year, but if I can work from sunnier climes, I may reconsider.

It will be interesting for sure. I’ve considered having a 4 days week for a while but it was never financially possible. Now, if I wfh full time the money I’m saving on travel and food means I can probably do it without changing my lifestyle.

As for office space I reckon they’ll be a lots of rentable, bright, exciting, spec’ed out rental offices for companies to use for things like big project meetings, workshops, etc...that don’t work well remotely.
But that’s probably a fraction. Housing maybe, but then do you need more housing in cities if there’s no offices there?

Looking forward to seeing where this goes

My wife works for one of the big players in both office and retail. They are far more worried about the retail sector and the online boom.

When it comes to good quality office space, which they provide, they believe the demand will always be there. There are plenty of large corporates that still need workforces to come together on a regular basis for the cross-fertilisation of ideas and the speeding up of certain events by being close at hand. What that will probably mean is that the second and third grade office space markets will be squeezed by both the first grade and the temporary office space that's on offer from the likes of Wework and Regus. The demand for temporary hubs to meet and talk will grow.

One thing is for sure. Wfh is here to stay.

Interested to see if people end up making their own little communities in commuter towns where there’s smaller versions of wework where people can rent out space to get out of the house/have some interaction with others.

Might look into some closed retail space in town

I don't know why people would pay and travel just to get out of the house.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:46 pm

LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:14 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:20 pm
It will be interesting for sure. I’ve considered having a 4 days week for a while but it was never financially possible. Now, if I wfh full time the money I’m saving on travel and food means I can probably do it without changing my lifestyle.

As for office space I reckon they’ll be a lots of rentable, bright, exciting, spec’ed out rental offices for companies to use for things like big project meetings, workshops, etc...that don’t work well remotely.
But that’s probably a fraction. Housing maybe, but then do you need more housing in cities if there’s no offices there?

Looking forward to seeing where this goes

My wife works for one of the big players in both office and retail. They are far more worried about the retail sector and the online boom.

When it comes to good quality office space, which they provide, they believe the demand will always be there. There are plenty of large corporates that still need workforces to come together on a regular basis for the cross-fertilisation of ideas and the speeding up of certain events by being close at hand. What that will probably mean is that the second and third grade office space markets will be squeezed by both the first grade and the temporary office space that's on offer from the likes of Wework and Regus. The demand for temporary hubs to meet and talk will grow.

One thing is for sure. Wfh is here to stay.

Interested to see if people end up making their own little communities in commuter towns where there’s smaller versions of wework where people can rent out space to get out of the house/have some interaction with others.

Might look into some closed retail space in town

Definitely. I had this thought the either day.

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:41 pm I don't know why people would pay and travel just to get out of the house.

Won't be going near an office again. And definitely not paying to go to one in the high street.

RientO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:42 pm

LittleMate wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:14 pm My wife works for one of the big players in both office and retail. They are far more worried about the retail sector and the online boom.

When it comes to good quality office space, which they provide, they believe the demand will always be there. There are plenty of large corporates that still need workforces to come together on a regular basis for the cross-fertilisation of ideas and the speeding up of certain events by being close at hand. What that will probably mean is that the second and third grade office space markets will be squeezed by both the first grade and the temporary office space that's on offer from the likes of Wework and Regus. The demand for temporary hubs to meet and talk will grow.

One thing is for sure. Wfh is here to stay.

Our teams are co-located on three UK sites, a site in India and a site in the US. I have only ever met my line manager who only came into the office once a month. Pre-Covid I was told to work from home more, even though I had worked from home on 70 days in the previous year. As much as I would like to collaborate in person, the reality would be flying to India to do it.

So I forsee less need for office space no matter how good it is. Some core departments will need office space, but 80-90% of our company is working remotely and can continue to do so.

Agree about retail. Impossible to see how it will recover.

Absolutely agree about the fact there will be less office space demand, but it appears that the ones that will suffer more than most are the poor quality office stock.

In retail, it would not surprise me to see a significant change of use. All areas of the country (metropolitan, suburban and rural) will see significant change as a result. We are going to need government foresight like never before ti make a success out of this change - or to avert disasters in some cases.

Allow me to tell you how it will play out.

Some companies will move all their employees back, others will try to make savings by downsizing offices and work from home policies.

In 5 years time it'll be obvious that the companies that brought back their employees have been more successful and everyone else will follow suit.

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:52 am Allow me to tell you how it will play out.

Some companies will move all their employees back, others will try to make savings by downsizing offices and work from home policies.

In 5 years time it'll be obvious that the companies that brought back their employees have been more successful and everyone else will follow suit.

Could well be right. Interested in your logic though.

I see the biggest benefit of working remotely being that it opens your pool of talent up exponentially. You no longer have to be limited to recruiting people who live within 50 miles of the office location but could get the best person, even if they lived 300 miles away, or even further potentially

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:52 pm

EastDerehamO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 pm Interesting Aviva is mentioned above!

Spent a lot building out-of-town offices to move some staff out the city centres, but as said now it’s all in reverse. 95% of staff surveyed said they’d want more home working, 25% said they’d still want the office to be their main place of work (the two figures aren’t in conflict albeit instinctively seem so), anyone can demand to work from the office still.

Feels like a win-win, no redundancies, company saves money, staff get more time back - my travel time saving 6 hours per week, plus lunchtimes at home not in the city centre - and more of their wish re working locale. Think it was going that way anyway, COVID impacts have just speeded it up.

As also said in above post I’m similarly reconsidering perhaps putting in for reduced hours in run in to retirement, will see how the new normal maps out first, whenever it may arrive.

I assumed there might be some people annoyed at having the goalposts moved from when they joined from going into Norwich, to commuting into London if they want to work in an office?

I’m all for it. But I do wonder about how certain jobs change in appeal in this new world. I know a lot of people who used to work in our call centres of claims department and the jobs pay from like 18-25k I.e. not a lot. But people enjoy it because the buzz of the atmosphere, the interactions, the social side of it, etc... but sitting at home, answering call after call from the public, with no meetings or teams calls, I don’t know how long people will be interested. Sounds joyless

Norwich city centre offices will inherit the workers from the closed (local) out-of-town offices, same will apply in York and London and elsewhere. So won’t be long commutes suddenly appearing. Most people prefer the city centres anyway, I was stuck out in the out-of-town business park for 2-3 years, lunchtimes were dire, it actually made my journey slightly easier as all A47 not slow-moving city centre roads, but still didn’t make up for it.

Bottom line is people won’t be forced to work from home, not everyone has the home set-up, and as you imply some just don’t like it, I have friends at work who will want to be in the office come the new norm and will get their wish.

EastDerehamO wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:31 am

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:52 pm

EastDerehamO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 pm Interesting Aviva is mentioned above!

Spent a lot building out-of-town offices to move some staff out the city centres, but as said now it’s all in reverse. 95% of staff surveyed said they’d want more home working, 25% said they’d still want the office to be their main place of work (the two figures aren’t in conflict albeit instinctively seem so), anyone can demand to work from the office still.

Feels like a win-win, no redundancies, company saves money, staff get more time back - my travel time saving 6 hours per week, plus lunchtimes at home not in the city centre - and more of their wish re working locale. Think it was going that way anyway, COVID impacts have just speeded it up.

As also said in above post I’m similarly reconsidering perhaps putting in for reduced hours in run in to retirement, will see how the new normal maps out first, whenever it may arrive.

I assumed there might be some people annoyed at having the goalposts moved from when they joined from going into Norwich, to commuting into London if they want to work in an office?

I’m all for it. But I do wonder about how certain jobs change in appeal in this new world. I know a lot of people who used to work in our call centres of claims department and the jobs pay from like 18-25k I.e. not a lot. But people enjoy it because the buzz of the atmosphere, the interactions, the social side of it, etc... but sitting at home, answering call after call from the public, with no meetings or teams calls, I don’t know how long people will be interested. Sounds joyless

Norwich city centre offices will inherit the workers from the closed (local) out-of-town offices, same will apply in York and London and elsewhere. So won’t be long commutes suddenly appearing. Most people prefer the city centres anyway, I was stuck out in the out-of-town business park for 2-3 years, lunchtimes were dire, it actually made my journey slightly easier as all A47 not slow-moving city centre roads, but still didn’t make up for it.

Bottom line is people won’t be forced to work from home, not everyone has the home set-up, and as you imply some just don’t like it, I have friends at work who will want to be in the office come the new norm and will get their wish.

I get that. Wfh is not fun for all - and most homes are not set up for working from home. I have done working from home, but it does not work for me. Found myself starting earlier, working later and having lunch later and later - yet feeling less productive. What it did do was allow me to do project work, but I did this at the expense of the mundane but necessary stuff.

My wife has been wfh since the very start of the pandemic, and she’s come to hate it. I converted the basement storeroom/workshop into an office - it’s clean, warm, carpeted and all that, but it’s obviously windowless and isolated. She’s a behaviour analyst for the NHS, based at the Maudsley Hospital in Denmark Hill, and misses her work colleagues enormously. She’s done probably no more than a dozen face-to-face assessments with patients in the last year, and doing them over the phone or by Zoom or whatever is really difficult. She misses her commute too, she used to cycle there, a round trip of about 12 miles and she would cycle to assessments around Southwark. She’s not doing any of that now, she’s lost all her fitness and motivation and her mental health has really suffered. She’s a very social person and misses the interaction with her colleagues. Because she has immune system issues she’s had to be very careful with any contact and that’s led to her being even more isolated.

In the meantime her NHS trust has taken the opportunity to clear out their offices and basically bulldoze them, so wfh is going to be the norm, even when all this is over.

No-one has mentioned the economic effects of this on the commercial property market either. Once all the offices are left vacant and the service industries around them have gone, plus the loss of the cafes, bars and restaurants that relied on them have all gone, there are going to be a lot of bankrupt commercial property landlords, which will depress the economy even more.

No-one is going to come out of this any better, I’m afraid.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:43 am

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:52 am Allow me to tell you how it will play out.

Some companies will move all their employees back, others will try to make savings by downsizing offices and work from home policies.

In 5 years time it'll be obvious that the companies that brought back their employees have been more successful and everyone else will follow suit.

Could well be right. Interested in your logic though.

I see the biggest benefit of working remotely being that it opens your pool of talent up exponentially. You no longer have to be limited to recruiting people who live within 50 miles of the office location but could get the best person, even if they lived 300 miles away, or even further potentially

Any company that requires large scale collaboration and communication gains efficiencies from collocation. Businesses haven't ended up grouped together for nothing. You do bring up an interesting point though. And for some businesses I'm sure you'll be right

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:55 am

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:43 am

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:52 am Allow me to tell you how it will play out.

Some companies will move all their employees back, others will try to make savings by downsizing offices and work from home policies.

In 5 years time it'll be obvious that the companies that brought back their employees have been more successful and everyone else will follow suit.

Could well be right. Interested in your logic though.

I see the biggest benefit of working remotely being that it opens your pool of talent up exponentially. You no longer have to be limited to recruiting people who live within 50 miles of the office location but could get the best person, even if they lived 300 miles away, or even further potentially

Any company that requires large scale collaboration and communication gains efficiencies from collocation. Businesses haven't ended up grouped together for nothing. You do bring up an interesting point though. And for some businesses I'm sure you'll be right

I agree with this. I started a new job in October and the time it's taken to get find out or resolve things that'd have taken a 5 minute conversation in an office has been pretty painful. There are more meetings than ever to make up for the loss of face to face time, so schedules are harder to work out. And depending on whether you buy into the conventional theory that co-location is good for innovation or original thinking, that's an obvious cost to a lot of organisations. If you don't have the chance to have a casual conversation with X, then it's hard to measure the loss of ideas that comes with it.

Think the predictions about the death of cities is a bit premature. The reason people were moving back into the cities from soulless suburbs was because they enjoyed the lifestyle. Once this pandemic is over, the pent up demand for what makes living in cities worthwhile - culture, socialising, nightlife, opportunity - is gonna be enormous. The idea of committing to living in a small town in middle of nowhere with no places to eat or meet my mates sounds pretty awful. Don't think I'm alone in valuing social and cultural stuff over having a bit more room at home.

But there are is an interesting point about whether white collar jobs that were considered difficult to outsource suddenly become viable to move somewhere cheaper.

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:52 am Allow me to tell you how it will play out.

Some companies will move all their employees back, others will try to make savings by downsizing offices and work from home policies.

In 5 years time it'll be obvious that the companies that brought back their employees have been more successful and everyone else will follow suit.

The most successful companies in the world have a large proportion of their employees working remotely in numerous locations, like Facebook, Google and Amazon. The most successful companies in the future will be those that adapt best to remote working. Companies with high overheads like office space and location weightings will lose out as their costs will impact too much on the bottom line.

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:12 am
Think the predictions about the death of cities is a bit premature. The reason people were moving back into the cities from soulless suburbs was because they enjoyed the lifestyle. Once this pandemic is over, the pent up demand for what makes living in cities worthwhile - culture, socialising, nightlife, opportunity - is gonna be enormous. The idea of committing to living in a small town in middle of nowhere with no places to eat or meet my mates sounds pretty awful. Don't think I'm alone in valuing social and cultural stuff over having a bit more room at home.

I had planned to move to Portugal when I retire next year, but as Mrs. RientO pointed out that I would miss the lifestyle I have in London, and she is right. I can’t ever see myself living in the countryside, it would drive me mad. I may not be in central London, but it is only half a dozen stops away on the central line, and I can walk to Orient. At some point everything should start to open again, and there will be a massive pent up demand for theatre, football, concerts etc. Also i may even get an OAP travel card in 3 years time (sigh).

RientO wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:14 am

Adz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:52 am Allow me to tell you how it will play out.

Some companies will move all their employees back, others will try to make savings by downsizing offices and work from home policies.

In 5 years time it'll be obvious that the companies that brought back their employees have been more successful and everyone else will follow suit.

The most successful companies in the world have a large proportion of their employees working remotely in numerous locations, like Facebook, Google and Amazon. The most successful companies in the future will be those that adapt best to remote working. Companies with high overheads like office space and location weightings will lose out as their costs will impact too much on the bottom line.

You're kidding me, the fangs created the campus concept. The complete opposite of remote working. Whilst they have offered remote working to their employees, it comes at a big cost saving (pay is benchmarked to the location you live in) as they know there is a hit to their efficiency.

Anyone else finding the WFH experiment increasingly tiresome and yearning for the social side of going to work?

Or is it just my household/mates?

Yep. Despite being fairly introverted at work, after nearly a year at the same desk at home I actually wouldn’t mind some terrible, banal small talk with colleagues.

Probably get fed up with it after about a week though

RientO wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:23 am

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:12 am
Think the predictions about the death of cities is a bit premature. The reason people were moving back into the cities from soulless suburbs was because they enjoyed the lifestyle. Once this pandemic is over, the pent up demand for what makes living in cities worthwhile - culture, socialising, nightlife, opportunity - is gonna be enormous. The idea of committing to living in a small town in middle of nowhere with no places to eat or meet my mates sounds pretty awful. Don't think I'm alone in valuing social and cultural stuff over having a bit more room at home.

I had planned to move to Portugal when I retire next year, but as Mrs. RientO pointed out that I would miss the lifestyle I have in London, and she is right. I can’t ever see myself living in the countryside, it would drive me mad. I may not be in central London, but it is only half a dozen stops away on the central line, and I can walk to Orient. At some point everything should start to open again, and there will be a massive pent up demand for theatre, football, concerts etc. Also i may even get an OAP travel card in 3 years time (sigh).

Pretty Much this live in zone 5 and can't see me ever moving out of London have a couple of mates who've moved out and litterally anything you want to do socially (apart from going to the pub) you have to drive to do.

Nah. I'm happy to carry on, with the odd office visit for when face to face is best.