Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:36 pm I think coyos has been shouting for him the longest on this board. I did say and I will say I do beleive that the club handled his development this past season rather well. I agreed with him going out on loan and not to be chucked in the first team and I said so at the time. I also said he could do with another loan or longer loan at Dover in which to aid his development further. I could see how good he was going to be given the right handling. This I can’t knock the club on to be fair.

It was probably around this time that the first contract offer was made to him and dare I suggest it was probably a low offer, not low verses value, just low as against his position in the clubs pecking order. That probably was the beginning of the seed being sowed to move however, I doubt they (player and agent) realised the impact he would have in that spell when he got in the team. Now his value increases as does his demands, he now holds all the cards and has continued to play them to his advantage.

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:33 pm You can all point the finger at the kid and his agent and Peterborough and whoever else. But if we had given him the opportunity here - and this goes back beyond last season, into Justin’s tenure - then the discussions (not) being had right now would be entirely different.

Imagine having missed out on two years of development because of James f*cking Alabi.

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:32 am

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:36 pm I think coyos has been shouting for him the longest on this board. I did say and I will say I do beleive that the club handled his development this past season rather well. I agreed with him going out on loan and not to be chucked in the first team and I said so at the time. I also said he could do with another loan or longer loan at Dover in which to aid his development further. I could see how good he was going to be given the right handling. This I can’t knock the club on to be fair.

It was probably around this time that the first contract offer was made to him and dare I suggest it was probably a low offer, not low verses value, just low as against his position in the clubs pecking order. That probably was the beginning of the seed being sowed to move however, I doubt they (player and agent) realised the impact he would have in that spell when he got in the team. Now his value increases as does his demands, he now holds all the cards and has continued to play them to his advantage.

March/April 2019 - not good enough to even sit on the bench in the National League.

November 2019 - scoring goals for fun in the National League.

He was held back unnecessarily. We mucked up.

Scuba Diver wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:52 am

RedO wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:33 pm You can all point the finger at the kid and his agent and Peterborough and whoever else. But if we had given him the opportunity here - and this goes back beyond last season, into Justin’s tenure - then the discussions (not) being had right now would be entirely different.

Imagine having missed out on two years of development because of James f*cking Alabi.

I agree. It can hardly inspire confidence in the management when:
1) Alabi was signed in the first place
2) it became apparent that he was all-told, a pretty sub-standard footballer and that is being generous
3) our Head Coach continued to persist with him, to the detriment of giving Ruel a game, when it was clear to all that Alabi possessed the touch of a washing machine

The actions of both ML and RE here, make Leyton Orient look like muppets.

RedO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:45 pm
We’ll also never know if he’d have had more affinity to the club if he’d picked up a National League winners medal last season and played some games for us before December 2019.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:30 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:32 am

Thor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:36 pm I think coyos has been shouting for him the longest on this board. I did say and I will say I do beleive that the club handled his development this past season rather well. I agreed with him going out on loan and not to be chucked in the first team and I said so at the time. I also said he could do with another loan or longer loan at Dover in which to aid his development further. I could see how good he was going to be given the right handling. This I can’t knock the club on to be fair.

It was probably around this time that the first contract offer was made to him and dare I suggest it was probably a low offer, not low verses value, just low as against his position in the clubs pecking order. That probably was the beginning of the seed being sowed to move however, I doubt they (player and agent) realised the impact he would have in that spell when he got in the team. Now his value increases as does his demands, he now holds all the cards and has continued to play them to his advantage.

March/April 2019 - not good enough to even sit on the bench in the National League.

November 2019 - scoring goals for fun in the National League.

He was held back unnecessarily. We mucked up.

No problem with waiting until he's slightly over ready - that's not going to harm his development as we've seen compared to throwing him in too early both for him and us. It's also about waiting for the right situation.

Putting him in during a season where we had Bonne and Koroma doing the business, chasing one guaranteed promotion spot with huge pressure on us every week and only 5 substitiute options per game is a very different matter to easing him in during a season when consolidation is the objective, nowhere near as much pressure, with not as good forwards as the year before, 7 subs and added development time to the point he is ready.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:09 am Let’s be honest, we treated the lad diabolically. Can you blame him for wanting to go to a club that believes in him?

If we had have shown 1% of the faith we gave to Alabi, things might have turned out differently.

DuvB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:20 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:09 am Let’s be honest, we treated the lad diabolically. Can you blame him for wanting to go to a club that believes in him?

If we had have shown 1% of the faith we gave to Alabi, things might have turned out differently.

Did you see him in training?

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:41 am With this pandemic and clubs not knowing when the new season will start it might have made more sense for Ruel to sign a one year contract and then review his position next Summer. Also, if he did well for us it might increase his options next year.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:41 am With this pandemic and clubs not knowing when the new season will start it might have made more sense for Ruel to sign a one year contract and then review his position again next Summer. Also, if he did well for us it might increase his options .

Ornchurch wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:21 am

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:41 am With this pandemic and clubs not knowing when the new season will start it might have made more sense for Ruel to sign a one year contract and then review his position again next Summer. Also, if he did well for us it might increase his options .

This is the sensible approach so for a well regarded teenager to walk out on a club at this time suggests that he has been tapped up.

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:51 am

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:30 am

RedO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:32 am

March/April 2019 - not good enough to even sit on the bench in the National League.

November 2019 - scoring goals for fun in the National League.

He was held back unnecessarily. We mucked up.

No problem with waiting until he's slightly over ready - that's not going to harm his development as we've seen compared to throwing him in too early both for him and us. It's also about waiting for the right situation.

Putting him in during a season where we had Bonne and Koroma doing the business, chasing one guaranteed promotion spot with huge pressure on us every week and only 5 substitiute options per game is a very different matter to easing him in during a season when consolidation is the objective, nowhere near as much pressure, with not as good forwards as the year before, 7 subs and added development time to the point he is ready.

Yeah, easing him into the odd game into a team who was top of the league, full of confidence, scoring for fun, winning most games would have really dented his development. Especially when you compare it to not playing instead of a sub-standard footballer, being shipped off to Dover who were struggling in the same league you talk about and then actually giving him a chance in a struggling league two team who were struggling to score.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:46 am When Martin said in his interview we would like another striker , would that be to replace Ruel or be an addition with Ruel ?

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:34 pm

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:46 am When Martin said in his interview we would like another striker , would that be to replace Ruel or be an addition with Ruel ?

It means Ruel if he decides he is staying
Or someone else if he leaves.

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:30 pm

Apple Wumble wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:51 am

Smendrick Feaselberg wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:30 am

No problem with waiting until he's slightly over ready - that's not going to harm his development as we've seen compared to throwing him in too early both for him and us. It's also about waiting for the right situation.

Putting him in during a season where we had Bonne and Koroma doing the business, chasing one guaranteed promotion spot with huge pressure on us every week and only 5 substitiute options per game is a very different matter to easing him in during a season when consolidation is the objective, nowhere near as much pressure, with not as good forwards as the year before, 7 subs and added development time to the point he is ready.

Yeah, easing him into the odd game into a team who was top of the league, full of confidence, scoring for fun, winning most games would have really dented his development. Especially when you compare it to not playing instead of a sub-standard footballer, being shipped off to Dover who were struggling in the same league you talk about and then actually giving him a chance in a struggling league two team who were struggling to score.

You seem to have ignored the point about there being only five places on the subs bench in the NL. Big risk to put an unproven player on the bench over a seasoned pro.

Sotiriou was on loan in the Isthmian League and then Conference South in the first half of 2018/19, and judging from him making only 9 apperances on loan in the NL South again from February to end of the season (albeit with 6 goals at that level) he wasn't yet ready to make a significant impact in the NL at that time.

While we had been doing better before Xmas (covering the period of his previous loans) we had a wobble post Xmas, winning 1 and losing 3 of 5 games in January/early Feb. Orient only scored 26 goals in the 19 league games from January 2019 to end of season, which definitely isn't "scoring for fun". With only 5 subs places and us struggling to score goals while grinding out results in tight games it wouldn't have been sensible at the time to put him on the bench ahead of seasoned pros in Simpson or Harrold so it was right for us to send him out on loan again.

We just couldn't take risks with our chances of promotion.

DuvB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:55 pm If Sotiriou gets little playing time at his next club, perhaps we can bring this thread up again.