Independent Leyton Orient Forum

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:53 pm Everything this Conservative government do is terrible.
From not enough tests to not enough PPE, 31,000+ dead, by their figures, and probably 40,000, the nearer figure.
Why are so many people on social media saying they're doing a good job?
Just as an aside, I reckon Johnson will resign this year.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 11:36 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:53 pm Everything this Conservative government do is terrible.
From not enough tests to not enough PPE, 31,000+ dead, by their figures, and probably 40,000, the nearer figure.
Why are so many people on social media saying they're doing a good job?
Just as an aside, I reckon Johnson will resign this year.

Why so many on social media saying they are doing brilliant, great and fantastic?

Have you forgotten the Tory Party false twitter accounts and websites during the last General Election?

The man who ran the Tory Party Dec2019 Farrago of Lies, Isaac Levido, is back to run the COVID Campaign and spin the numbers and social media.

Max B Gold wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 11:36 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:53 pm Everything this Conservative government do is terrible.
From not enough tests to not enough PPE, 31,000+ dead, by their figures, and probably 40,000, the nearer figure.
Why are so many people on social media saying they're doing a good job?
Just as an aside, I reckon Johnson will resign this year.

Why so many on social media saying they are doing brilliant, great and fantastic?

Have you forgotten the Tory Party false twitter accounts and websites during the last General Election?

The man who ran the Tory Party Dec2019 Farrago of Lies, Isaac Levido, is back to run the COVID Campaign and spin the numbers and social media.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 11:15 am Apologies, this is a bit "techie" but relevant to the overall discussion.

Is now a good time to mention that Bluetooth (that the app uses) is more vulnerable to hacking than WiFi?

In fact Bluetooth is so vulnerable that most security companies will advise you to enable Bluetooth on your device only when you need to use it. It should be turned off at all other times. To enable the app to work you'll need to leave it on at all times. A hackers wet dream.

The most common Bluetooth version used is "specced" to work up to 30 feet, device to device. In reality this means it will work to a much longer distance, quite commonly. The reason being is that if the "standard" is that it works up to 30 feet apart then it must routinely work at much larger distances as variance in atmospherics/location/buildings etc (it uses radio technology) can affect it.

I’ve not seen any proof that Bluetooth can accurately measure distance between devices. There is a huge amount of discussion about this on the net but basically what I’m seeing is that any measurement based on “flight time” between devices is flawed for several reasons. The coalition between Apple and Google would seem, by far, to have the best chance of solving this as they have control of Operating Systems (OS) and chip-sets. The UK’s app developer has not and is hugely disadvantaged by this. So why go down this route?

So, apart from the newly emerged technical issues with the app, the fact that by permanently enabling Bluetooth that you're opening yourself up to hackers, and the fact that Bluetooth probably cannot accurately measure distance between devices then it's all looking good!

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm Ive been reading that the app only works when its in the foreground, and it wont work in the background. If therefore you have to have another app in the foreground, the governments track and trace app wont work.
So typical of this conservative government, they f*** up everything they touch

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm Ive been reading that the app only works when its in the foreground, and it wont work in the background. If therefore you have to have another app in the foreground, the governments track and trace app wont work.
So typical of this conservative government, they f*** up everything they touch

Perhaps you should post some links to some of the stuff you've read, so we can see for ourselves. No doubt there are technical challenges but I'd be surprised if something as basic as not working in the background is one of them, given that there are likely to be some quite smart people working on this. I'll keep an open mind though pending some verification.

Or is this just another excuse for a rant about the government?

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm Ive been reading that the app only works when its in the foreground, and it wont work in the background. If therefore you have to have another app in the foreground, the governments track and trace app wont work.
So typical of this conservative government, they f*** up everything they touch

Perhaps you should post some links to some of the stuff you've read, so we can see for ourselves. No doubt there are technical challenges but I'd be surprised if something as basic as not working in the background is one of them, given that there are likely to be some quite smart people working on this. I'll keep an open mind though pending some verification.

Or is this just another excuse for a rant about the government?
[/quote
Here's a couple of links, seeing as you can't be bothered to look for yourself

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ld-phones/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hones.html

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm Ive been reading that the app only works when its in the foreground, and it wont work in the background. If therefore you have to have another app in the foreground, the governments track and trace app wont work.
So typical of this conservative government, they f*** up everything they touch

Perhaps you should post some links to some of the stuff you've read, so we can see for ourselves. No doubt there are technical challenges but I'd be surprised if something as basic as not working in the background is one of them, given that there are likely to be some quite smart people working on this. I'll keep an open mind though pending some verification.

Or is this just another excuse for a rant about the government?

Here's a couple of links, seeing as you can't be bothered to look for yourself

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ld-phones/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hones.html

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:41 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

Perhaps you should post some links to some of the stuff you've read, so we can see for ourselves. No doubt there are technical challenges but I'd be surprised if something as basic as not working in the background is one of them, given that there are likely to be some quite smart people working on this. I'll keep an open mind though pending some verification.

Or is this just another excuse for a rant about the government?

Here's a couple of links, seeing as you can't be bothered to look for yourself

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ld-phones/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hones.html

I did look for myself, can't see any mention of the app not working in the background in either of those articles.

Here's an article which suggests that it works ok in the background:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... racing-app

It's still early days with bugs to be fixed, I prefer to at least give it a chance before condemning it to the dustbin. It's not likely to be perfect ever.

It's funny how Apple and especially Google are public enemy number one when not paying their taxes, but knights in white armour now, who people are desperate for the government to go into partnership with.

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:41 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

Perhaps you should post some links to some of the stuff you've read, so we can see for ourselves. No doubt there are technical challenges but I'd be surprised if something as basic as not working in the background is one of them, given that there are likely to be some quite smart people working on this. I'll keep an open mind though pending some verification.

Or is this just another excuse for a rant about the government?

Here's a couple of links, seeing as you can't be bothered to look for yourself

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ld-phones/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hones.html

I did look for myself, can't see any mention of the app not working in the background in either of those articles.

Here's an article which suggests that it works ok in the background:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... racing-app

It's still early days with bugs to be fixed, I prefer to at least give it a chance before condemning it to the dustbin. It's not likely to be perfect ever.

It's funny how Apple and especially Google are public enemy number one when not paying their taxes, but knights in white armour now, who people are desperate for the government to go into partnership with.

BoniO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:14 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:41 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pm
Here's a couple of links, seeing as you can't be bothered to look for yourself

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ld-phones/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hones.html

I did look for myself, can't see any mention of the app not working in the background in either of those articles.

Here's an article which suggests that it works ok in the background:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... racing-app

It's still early days with bugs to be fixed, I prefer to at least give it a chance before condemning it to the dustbin. It's not likely to be perfect ever.

It's funny how Apple and especially Google are public enemy number one when not paying their taxes, but knights in white armour now, who people are desperate for the government to go into partnership with.

Not really. Some of us who worked in the industry know how difficult it is to create complex bespoke software, under extreme time pressure. Then add in the very difficult technical challenges around distance measurement using Bluetooth and it's a no brainer to look for assistance or partnership with the big boys. Now really isn't the time to try and do this when there are more viable alternatives. As for your comment re Apple and Google being criticised for not paying taxes, nothing has changed there but that doesn't mean you ignore what is bound to be a more robust offering from them, with a much higher chance of success. The fact that their offering also uses decentralised data - it's stored in your own phone - is just the cherry on the top of the cake.

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:27 pm

ComeOnYouOs wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm Ive been reading that the app only works when its in the foreground, and it wont work in the background. If therefore you have to have another app in the foreground, the governments track and trace app wont work.
So typical of this conservative government, they f*** up everything they touch

Perhaps you should post some links to some of the stuff you've read, so we can see for ourselves. No doubt there are technical challenges but I'd be surprised if something as basic as not working in the background is one of them, given that there are likely to be some quite smart people working on this. I'll keep an open mind though pending some verification.

Or is this just another excuse for a rant about the government?

Here's a couple of links, seeing as you can't be bothered to look for yourself

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ld-phones/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... hones.html

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:47 pm

BoniO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 5:14 pm

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 4:41 pm
I did look for myself, can't see any mention of the app not working in the background in either of those articles.

Here's an article which suggests that it works ok in the background:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... racing-app

It's still early days with bugs to be fixed, I prefer to at least give it a chance before condemning it to the dustbin. It's not likely to be perfect ever.

It's funny how Apple and especially Google are public enemy number one when not paying their taxes, but knights in white armour now, who people are desperate for the government to go into partnership with.

Not really. Some of us who worked in the industry know how difficult it is to create complex bespoke software, under extreme time pressure. Then add in the very difficult technical challenges around distance measurement using Bluetooth and it's a no brainer to look for assistance or partnership with the big boys. Now really isn't the time to try and do this when there are more viable alternatives. As for your comment re Apple and Google being criticised for not paying taxes, nothing has changed there but that doesn't mean you ignore what is bound to be a more robust offering from them, with a much higher chance of success. The fact that their offering also uses decentralised data - it's stored in your own phone - is just the cherry on the top of the cake.

I understand the build vs buy argument and the points you make about it are valid ones.

As I understand it the centralised option gives more data analytics capability which may turn out to be helpful and add something to understanding how the virus is transmitted, which I don't think the decentralised app does.

NHSX have said nothing is ruled out in terms of sticking with their app vs going with the Apple/Google offering. So let's see.

It clearly isn't another govt f*** up (yet), as stated above and that comment should not be allowed to pass without challenge.

StillSpike wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 9:37 pm It seems odd, assuming you're trying to convince an already skeptical audience that you have no ulterior motive over and above a track and trace functionality (the like of which any other responsible and caring government might want), if you insist on going your own way on a more expensive, less tested, built-from-the-ground-up solution, rather than the one everyone else is happy to use.

At some point, assuming someone is in the mood to hold you to account, you have to be able to answer the question "why is this country so different to all the others?" - Essentially, why is everyone else wrong in going for the off the shelf solution, yet UK feels it's right to go its own way?

faldO wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 11:27 pm

StillSpike wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 9:37 pm It seems odd, assuming you're trying to convince an already skeptical audience that you have no ulterior motive over and above a track and trace functionality (the like of which any other responsible and caring government might want), if you insist on going your own way on a more expensive, less tested, built-from-the-ground-up solution, rather than the one everyone else is happy to use.

At some point, assuming someone is in the mood to hold you to account, you have to be able to answer the question "why is this country so different to all the others?" - Essentially, why is everyone else wrong in going for the off the shelf solution, yet UK feels it's right to go its own way?

More expensive - link to costs of any solutions please.
Less tested - than what? Most countries build their own apps and so would have to go through a cycle of testing, and testing for the UK app is still going on
Why is this country so different to all the others? - Some, but by no means all (not France, South Korea, Norway). Germany had their hand forced by Apple/Google only last week, which not all in Germany are happy about (FT article eg)
Essentially, why is everyone else wrong in going for the off the shelf solution - that patently is not the case - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_apps. In case it's not clear, the Apple/Google thing is an API/protocol, it's not an off-the-shelf solution or something you can go out and buy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_/_ ... ng_project

An already skeptical audience - it's only some people. A survey from last week said 62% of people said they'd be prepared to download the UK app - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... l-reveals/

I actually don't care that much about the nature of the app from a technical perspective, though I do see some merit in the centralised system so far as additional analytics of the data goes. But as I have said before I am perfectly happy to install it and have no concerns over privacy.

As for being a "cap doffer" and spouting nonsense and ignoring reasonable arguments - rubbish. I haven't ignored anything - there's always different sides to an argument and a wealth of opinions. Debating the issues and holding views that don't coincide with their own makes some people on this board very uncomfortable.

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 11:34 pm
Time to stop pink clouding fella.

faldO wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 12:02 am

Disoriented wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 11:34 pm
Time to stop pink clouding fella.

QED.