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Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:04 am
by Mistadobalina
StillSpike wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:28 am
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:19 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:03 am
Complains when people generalise about the Brexit movement, then does the exact same thing to the Scottish independence movement. Complains about a democratic legitimacy deficit with the UK and EU, can't see the issue with Scotland being consistently ruled by a political party that hasn't had a Scottish majority in about half a century.
Most votes overall - 1959. Most seats - 1954
Unless I've misunderstood the point Mista raised, didn't Scotland vote for Labour in 1997 - 45% of the vote and 56 seats - and get a Labour Govt in Westminster? No so-called "democratic deficit" then.
Point was about the Tories, who've been in charge for the large majority of that time. Could've been better phrased.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:21 am
by RedDwarf 1881
All this talk about Scottish independence but what did our last two Scottish Prime Ministers do for Scotland, Blair and Brown.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:26 am
by StillSpike
Ah right - I had misunderstood. I'd taken it as the traditional "democratic deficit" argument I hear a lot about up here
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm
by EH16
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 am
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:24 am
Since when circumstances have changed radically. It's a bit tedious to have to explain this AGAIN but here we go.... During the referendum a large element of project fear was lying to people that Scotland would lose membership of the EU by voting for independence. Now, here we are about to be dragged out of the EU despite 62% voting to stay in. Are you with me yet?
But indyref wasn't a vote on being in the EU. You voted to stay with us and that means abiding by whatever comes after.
Absolute rubbish. First, I was simply using one example of why we are entitled to revisit this issue of independence. But more importantly there's NO democratic system EVER where you only have 1 vote on an issue and that's it settled for all time. If that was the case the UK referendum on EU membership in 1975 would still stand. Ah but, I hear you cry, the EU has gone down roads we couldn't have imagined then. Exactly my point, circumstances change and it's perfectly legitimate to revisit issues.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:58 pm
by Max B Gold
RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 8:23 pm
Max B Gold wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 6:37 pm
RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 5:41 pm
Max, the way things are going, nobody is going to be independent. Brussels will be running everything in a Ferderal superstate. Like I've already stated, I now believe Brexit won't happen. With that in mind, what excuse would the SNP have for a second referendum on Scottish independence apart from hatred of England.
Are you for real? Hatred is the rocket fuel for humanity.
That's the impression the SNP gives me. Nicola Sturgeon comes across as one really bitter woman.
I'm not an SNP member or supporter (in fact I despise them) but I have respect for Wee Nicky as a competent and feasome political opponent. She's not bitter just passionate about Scottish Independence.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 1:52 pm
by RedDwarf 1881
According to Ruth Davison Nicola Sturgeon talks about independence every day. Passionate or obsessed.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 pm
by Long slender neck
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 am
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:24 am
Since when circumstances have changed radically. It's a bit tedious to have to explain this AGAIN but here we go.... During the referendum a large element of project fear was lying to people that Scotland would lose membership of the EU by voting for independence. Now, here we are about to be dragged out of the EU despite 62% voting to stay in. Are you with me yet?
But indyref wasn't a vote on being in the EU. You voted to stay with us and that means abiding by whatever comes after.
Absolute rubbish. First, I was simply using one example of why we are entitled to revisit this issue of independence. But more importantly there's NO democratic system EVER where you only have 1 vote on an issue and that's it settled for all time. If that was the case the UK referendum on EU membership in 1975 would still stand. Ah but, I hear you cry, the EU has gone down roads we couldn't have imagined then. Exactly my point, circumstances change and it's perfectly legitimate to revisit issues.
Revisit it, but wait longer than 5 years.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:00 pm
by tuffers#1
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 pm
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 am
But indyref wasn't a vote on being in the EU. You voted to stay with us and that means abiding by whatever comes after.
Absolute rubbish. First, I was simply using one example of why we are entitled to revisit this issue of independence. But more importantly there's NO democratic system EVER where you only have 1 vote on an issue and that's it settled for all time. If that was the case the UK referendum on EU membership in 1975 would still stand. Ah but, I hear you cry, the EU has gone down roads we couldn't have imagined then. Exactly my point, circumstances change and it's perfectly legitimate to revisit issues.
Revisit it, but wait longer than 5 years.
Good job we dont treat Cancer victims like that.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:31 pm
by Max B Gold
RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 1:52 pm
According to Ruth Davison Nicola Sturgeon talks about independence every day. Passionate or obsessed.
I suppose it's a marginal improvement on bleating about Brexit morning til night 7 days a week.
Rumour is Nicky phoned Ruth up, called her a fat cow and slammed the phone down.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:57 pm
by EH16
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 pm
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 am
But indyref wasn't a vote on being in the EU. You voted to stay with us and that means abiding by whatever comes after.
Absolute rubbish. First, I was simply using one example of why we are entitled to revisit this issue of independence. But more importantly there's NO democratic system EVER where you only have 1 vote on an issue and that's it settled for all time. If that was the case the UK referendum on EU membership in 1975 would still stand. Ah but, I hear you cry, the EU has gone down roads we couldn't have imagined then. Exactly my point, circumstances change and it's perfectly legitimate to revisit issues.
Revisit it, but wait longer than 5 years.
Why? Because you say so? There's nothing to say what is a reasonable period. If the voters think it's too soon I'm sure they'd take the opportunity to say so. You've lost this argument. Accept it. Move on.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:11 pm
by Flying Hippo
As tiresome as the arguments for Scottish Independence can be, there is a far stronger argument for the separation of London from the remainder of the United Kingdom. Part and parcel of living in a big ("International" (sic)) city simply demonstrates how far removed London and some other metropolitan centres have become from reality as experienced from outwith it. Hopefully London will be represented in the necessary divorce negotiations by the crack unit responsible for "negotiating" with the European Union on Brexit.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:23 pm
by Long slender neck
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 3:57 pm
Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 pm
EH16 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Absolute rubbish. First, I was simply using one example of why we are entitled to revisit this issue of independence. But more importantly there's NO democratic system EVER where you only have 1 vote on an issue and that's it settled for all time. If that was the case the UK referendum on EU membership in 1975 would still stand. Ah but, I hear you cry, the EU has gone down roads we couldn't have imagined then. Exactly my point, circumstances change and it's perfectly legitimate to revisit issues.
Revisit it, but wait longer than 5 years.
Why? Because you say so? There's nothing to say what is a reasonable period. If the voters think it's too soon I'm sure they'd take the opportunity to say so. You've lost this argument. Accept it. Move on.
You decided to be a part of the UK, the UK decided to leave the EU.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:26 pm
by Article_50
It's so obvious that May doesn't want us to leave the EU and she's pulling every trick in the book to achieve this
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:45 pm
by RedDwarf 1881
Article_50 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 12:26 pm
It's so obvious that May doesn't want us to leave the EU and she's pulling every trick in the book to achieve this
Exactly and that's why the Conservatives are going to get utterly wiped out in the EU elections .
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:50 pm
by Article_50
Liaising with the Labour Party is another delaying tactic ……………
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 1:17 pm
by Thor
RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 12:45 pm
Article_50 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 12:26 pm
It's so obvious that May doesn't want us to leave the EU and she's pulling every trick in the book to achieve this
Exactly and that's why the Conservatives are going to get utterly wiped out in the EU elections .
Both of your are correct and spot on in your comments.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:17 pm
by Clive Evans
It has been interesting watching the 2 main players of the Brexit Party this week. Their main tactic has been, to be very loud, aggressive and trying to drown out anyone with an opposing view. Whenever there is an audience, their supporters are equally vociferous and aggressive, all adding to the effect of shouting down any opposition. If you don't believe me, try and look for clips on YouTube. It was equally interesting when Farage was asked by a member of the audience to name one country that trades solely under WTO rules ( a position the Brexit Party favours ). Farage wriggled and squirmed, went off at a tangent, saying how good this position would be; but failed to list one ( because there isn't one ). A great moment, when the noisy boor was finally silenced. The man can honestly be described by both words that sound the same: a boor and a bore!
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:25 pm
by greyhound
West Side Story wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 2:17 pm
It has been interesting watching the 2 main players of the Brexit Party this week. Their main tactic has been, to be very loud, aggressive and trying to drown out anyone with an opposing view. Whenever there is an audience, their supporters are equally vociferous and aggressive, all adding to the effect of shouting down any opposition. If you don't believe me, try and look for clips on YouTube. It was equally interesting when Farage was asked by a member of the audience to name one country that trades solely under WTO rules ( a position the Brexit Party favours ). Farage wriggled and squirmed, went off at a tangent, saying how good this position would be; but failed to list one ( because there isn't one ). A great moment, when the noisy boor was finally silenced. The man can honestly be described by both words that sound the same: a boor and a bore!
the words of G Collins boorinnnnnnnng.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:42 pm
by Still's Carenae
There is one country Mauritania.
However, we have signed trade deals with many countries which would take effect if we left with no deal. From memory these cover around 80% of trade agreements with the EU.
The other issue is that we would have a 2-10 year transition period where tariffs and customs would stand still(GATT24). So we are not falling of a cliff edge, unless the EU refuses to allow GATT 24.
So we will not just walk away.
My guess is that our incompetent non democratic politicians will keep us in the EU by hook or by crook.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:30 pm
by Beradogs
I don’t get the point that because no other country trades that way we should not? What is the point? We get to free up the British economy, have scope for regulatory reform and form closer trading ties with the fast-growing parts of the world economy. The WTO is comprehensive, tried and tested, and respected by the world’s trading nations. It is not some leap into the dark. Moreover, the UK already conducts over 55% of its exports trade with non-EU members, primarily under WTO rules. You obviously have no faith in the British people. That’s fine.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:55 pm
by tuffers#1
Beradogs wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 5:30 pm
I don’t get the point that because no other country trades that way we should not? What is the point? We get to free up the British economy, have scope for regulatory reform and form closer trading ties with the fast-growing parts of the world economy. The WTO is comprehensive, tried and tested, and respected by the world’s trading nations. It is not some leap into the dark. Moreover, the UK already conducts over 55% of its exports trade with non-EU members, primarily under WTO rules. You obviously have no faith in the British people. That’s fine.
Fast growing world economy ?
The Worlds Economy is broke fella .
China owns all the debt
No one can afford to pay off there debts to China .
China is in slow decline bailed out by an unrealistic backing from
Government.
The whole point of brexit & the rise of the right is for a long slow march into war .
Once that starts Economies will start to recover assuming the weak give into the powers that be
& offer them as fodder for future generations to mourn as heroes to be celebrated by more poppies
eidleweiss lilys & whatever other flowers are used to mourn the fallen of war around the world.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:11 pm
by Thor
I see the latest poll shows the Brexit Party will win more votes than the Torres and Labour combined.
The people are speaking and the people want OUT.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:22 pm
by Mistadobalina
Beradogs wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 5:30 pm
I don’t get the point that because no other country trades that way we should not? What is the point? We get to free up the British economy, have scope for regulatory reform and form closer trading ties with the fast-growing parts of the world economy. The WTO is comprehensive, tried and tested, and respected by the world’s trading nations. It is not some leap into the dark. Moreover, the UK already conducts over 55% of its exports trade with non-EU members, primarily under WTO rules. You obviously have no faith in the British people. That’s fine.
The USA is currently dismantling the WTO and if you hasn't noticed, a full on trade war is kicking off. The WTO is far from respected, you've totally distorted that 55% stat through conflating it with another unspecified one and have played the asinine as f*CK 'just believe card!!!'.
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:23 pm
by Mistadobalina
Thor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:11 pm
I see the latest poll shows the Brexit Party will win more votes than the Torres and Labour combined.
The people are speaking and the people want OUT.
Thought you didn't believe polls? Specifically the ones that show a strong majority for remain now?
Re: Brexit
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:28 pm
by Thor
Just repeating what I read and it seems to show the people want out. In respect to polls you’re right as most or at least in the last 10 years or so they’ve got most of them wrong.
