Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:00 pm**

Another good one that’s a lot more than this quote but a good one to pull that might make a few people think…
There are things to be learnt from another losing final.

The first is the treatment of the England manager. Frankly the environment Southgate has had to negotiate has been extraordinary in its hostility, its relentlessness, its lack of reason. The way people have spoken about a nice, decent, totally committed man is not just unacceptably toxic but deeply depressing. From ex-pros looking for clicks and leverage, to every gabbling head with access to fingers and a smartphone, there has been a barrage of disrespect, ignorance and mean-spiritedness. English football and English people should feel a deep sense of regret about this.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:22 pm**

Unfortunately that comes with the territory of being the England manager . In my lifetime , ever since Alf Ramsey when things don't go well on the pitch the England manager has been heavily criticised . Do you remember turnip head , Graham Taylor or the Wally with the Brolly Stephen McClaren . They have all had their fair share of stick .

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:30 am**

I'm amazed anyone who watched the game thinks we went for it after equalising. 2 minutes later our midfield was sitting so deep it was almost a back six. Having players with good attacking abilities on the field doesn't mean we went for it if they're instructed to play defensively. After southgate has made some subs which make a difference he then reverts back to the original structure, but with even more square pegs in round holes.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 5:53 am**

To put things in perspective this time round.
Losing to Spain felt like getting to the final at Wimbledon unseeded and being wiped out by Alcaraz.
Whereas losing to Italy last time round was the equivalent of being top seed and then getting beat by Tim Henman.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:44 am**

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:22 pm Unfortunately that comes with the territory of being the England manager . In my lifetime , ever since Alf Ramsey when things don't go well on the pitch the England manager has been heavily criticised . Do you remember turnip head , Graham Taylor or the Wally with the Brolly Stephen McClaren . They have all had their fair share of stick .

That’s the point. It’s endemic and unhelpful. It’s all about unrealistic expectations. We have the disease of reminiscence- looking to the distant park to calculate where should be now.

I think Rodri said something along the lines of them being a team and everyone, at every stage, from coach’s to fans, believing in the team and the goal.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 7:23 am**

I can't remember anyone on here disputing Gareth Southgate was a pleasant, decent and honest man.
That doesn't mean he is the best person to coach our crop of young players to the next world Cup and beyond.
He may be the least worst manager since Sir Alf, but his tactics have too often brought about defeat regardless of the round reached.
Every manager reaches the end of their shelf life and he has most certainly come to that stage now.

On a totally different note please BBC do not ever allow Shearer to be a co-commentator again.
Shouted like a madman, interrupted and talked so much he must have been paid by the word.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:33 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:26 pm Here's the clip.

It felt odd and disappointing at the time, although it wasn't obvious it would be a turning point. TBH much as I will stick up for Southgate, and agree with Hoover's argument that we were right not to be "more aggressive" against Spain, you do need to be able to adjust your outlook a bit*, and this moment does show just how deeply the caution had become ingrained. It deserves to become an emblem of the defeat.

*thinking back to 2021, when Southgate had in his usua deliberate and thoughtful style, prepped us well and set us up in a way to dominate Italy for the first half an hour. Mancini clocked it though and made some very early subs which swung the game back in their favour, and we never really seemed able to regain the initiative.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:43 am**

OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:33 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:26 pm Here's the clip.

It felt odd and disappointing at the time, although it wasn't obvious it would be a turning point. TBH much as I will stick up for Southgate, and agree with Hoover's argument that we were right not to be "more aggressive" against Spain, you do need to be able to adjust your outlook a bit*, and this moment does show just how deeply the caution had become ingrained. It deserves to become an emblem of the defeat.

*thinking back to 2021, when Southgate had in his usua deliberate and thoughtful style, prepped us well and set us up in a way to dominate Italy for the first half an hour. Mancini clocked it though and made some very early subs which swung the game back in their favour, and we never really seemed able to regain the initiative.

Good take. I wonder what Pep would have said to Walker had he done it in a similar position for city in an important game they weren’t winning.
I think you’re right that it’s ingrained. That throw as an example. He had an easy throw into Palmer who could have easily won a corner but he decided to throw it 40 yards backwards. You could say experience told him that we’d been under the cosh and we just needed to keep the ball.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:52 am**

OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:33 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:26 pm Here's the clip.

It felt odd and disappointing at the time, although it wasn't obvious it would be a turning point. TBH much as I will stick up for Southgate, and agree with Hoover's argument that we were right not to be "more aggressive" against Spain, you do need to be able to adjust your outlook a bit*, and this moment does show just how deeply the caution had become ingrained. It deserves to become an emblem of the defeat.

*thinking back to 2021, when Southgate had in his usua deliberate and thoughtful style, prepped us well and set us up in a way to dominate Italy for the first half an hour. Mancini clocked it though and made some very early subs which swung the game back in their favour, and we never really seemed able to regain the initiative.

*Why then didn't he use his usual deliberate and thoughtful way to change our tactics in that 2nd half and extra time?
Never has been a Plan B other than a like for like substitution around the 60-65 minute mark.
Four years and nothing much has changed, take for example Kane's performance in a Euro final.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:54 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:26 pm Here's the clip.

That's all on Pickford. There's an easy pass on to the left back position.

His distribution was awful all tournament. You could see players getting pissed off with him lumping it long instead of playing out, but none of them pulled him up on it. He'd just put his hand up in apology and make that face.

Same the last minute of the game. We had a free kick on the halfway line, everyone went up to the edge of the box for the ball in. Pickford takes the kick and just floats it in aimlessly. You want an outfield player crossing that in properly.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:07 am**

one o in huntingdon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:52 am
OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:33 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:26 pm Here's the clip.

It felt odd and disappointing at the time, although it wasn't obvious it would be a turning point. TBH much as I will stick up for Southgate, and agree with Hoover's argument that we were right not to be "more aggressive" against Spain, you do need to be able to adjust your outlook a bit*, and this moment does show just how deeply the caution had become ingrained. It deserves to become an emblem of the defeat.

*thinking back to 2021, when Southgate had in his usua deliberate and thoughtful style, prepped us well and set us up in a way to dominate Italy for the first half an hour. Mancini clocked it though and made some very early subs which swung the game back in their favour, and we never really seemed able to regain the initiative.
*Why then didn't he use his usual deliberate and thoughtful way to change our tactics in that 2nd half and extra time?
Never has been a Plan B other than a like for like substitution around the 60-65 minute mark.
Four years and nothing much has changed, take for example Kane's performance in a Euro final.

Think you can say a lot about Southgate this tournament in terms of selection and formation but are you really going to pick the trope “no plan b”? His subs changed the game in the last 16 and semi final and you could argue the same for the quarters

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:08 am**

There was no movement ahead of Walker. He was about to get pulled up for time wasting so had to release the ball. There was nothing wrong with throwing it back to Stones and retaining possession. Other than aimlessly throwing it into the box, he had no option.

The problem there is we are too advanced as a team. Guehi was in the penalty area. Shaw is on the edge of the box. Walker is taking the throw in. Stones has no one to pass to other than Pickford because we have pushed up so far. Saying this shows we're being too cautious is bollocks.

The issue there is Pickford not taking the easy option, as happened so often. The other issue is nobody having the balls to tell him.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:24 am**

Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:08 am There was no movement ahead of Walker. He was about to get pulled up for time wasting so had to release the ball. There was nothing wrong with throwing it back to Stones and retaining possession. Other than aimlessly throwing it into the box, he had no option.

The problem there is we are too advanced as a team. Guehi was in the penalty area. Shaw is on the edge of the box. Walker is taking the throw in. Stones has no one to pass to other than Pickford because we have pushed up so far. Saying this shows we're being too cautious is bollocks.

The issue there is Pickford not taking the easy option, as happened so often. The other issue is nobody having the balls to tell him.

You don't necessarily need movement, you need confidence in your teammate that they can control the ball in tight areas and at minimum gain a foul. There are plenty of players he could have thrown it to and kept Spain penned in in their third.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:30 am**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:47 pm I like this https://www.theguardian.com/football/ar ... inal-spain

Read that earlier, brilliant analysis

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:54 am**

Jeremy Bentham wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:24 am
Hoover Attack wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:08 am There was no movement ahead of Walker. He was about to get pulled up for time wasting so had to release the ball. There was nothing wrong with throwing it back to Stones and retaining possession. Other than aimlessly throwing it into the box, he had no option.

The problem there is we are too advanced as a team. Guehi was in the penalty area. Shaw is on the edge of the box. Walker is taking the throw in. Stones has no one to pass to other than Pickford because we have pushed up so far. Saying this shows we're being too cautious is bollocks.

The issue there is Pickford not taking the easy option, as happened so often. The other issue is nobody having the balls to tell him.
You don't necessarily need movement, you need confidence in your teammate that they can control the ball in tight areas and at minimum gain a foul. There are plenty of players he could have thrown it to and kept Spain penned in in their third.

There is no one in that clip in enough space to receive the ball.

Spain are ensuring we either go back to Stones or toss it into the box. And this was when Kane was off so Watkins isn't an option for that, meaning Guehi had gone up to provide an aerial threat, meaning Stones had no simple sideways pass.

Pickford should have gone to left back and kept the move going on. This is the problem with having a goalkeeper who plays for a team that don't play football and love the long lump forward.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:58 am**

The Mindsweep wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:30 am
Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:47 pm I like this https://www.theguardian.com/football/ar ... inal-spain
Read that earlier, brilliant analysis

That is hilariously dramatic.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:12 am**

Rich Tea Wellin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:07 am
one o in huntingdon wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:52 am
OyinbO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:33 am

It felt odd and disappointing at the time, although it wasn't obvious it would be a turning point. TBH much as I will stick up for Southgate, and agree with Hoover's argument that we were right not to be "more aggressive" against Spain, you do need to be able to adjust your outlook a bit*, and this moment does show just how deeply the caution had become ingrained. It deserves to become an emblem of the defeat.

*thinking back to 2021, when Southgate had in his usua deliberate and thoughtful style, prepped us well and set us up in a way to dominate Italy for the first half an hour. Mancini clocked it though and made some very early subs which swung the game back in their favour, and we never really seemed able to regain the initiative.
*Why then didn't he use his usual deliberate and thoughtful way to change our tactics in that 2nd half and extra time?
Never has been a Plan B other than a like for like substitution around the 60-65 minute mark.
Four years and nothing much has changed, take for example Kane's performance in a Euro final.
Think you can say a lot about Southgate this tournament in terms of selection and formation but are you really going to pick the trope “no plan b”? His subs changed the game in the last 16 and semi final and you could argue the same for the quarters

Exactly what I said, its not a change of tactics, so ok then perhaps no Plan C.
Plan B still remains a like for like change unless you count sitting deeper as a tactic alteration.
You didn't care to discuss the other point that nothing much has really changed in four years.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:12 am**

being reported that Bellingham had a shouting match with Southgate at the side of the pitch to make changes towards the end of the game...

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 12:11 pm**

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 5:52 pm**

Pickford has the ball at his feet. The Spanish forward has arced his run to block off the ball going directly back to Stones. The Spanish defence have pushed out really quickly, leaving 2 or 3 English players off side. Pickford has the option of playing the ball out to Shaw at left back, who has Foden(?) ahead of him to attack down that side. Pickford also has the easier of option of rolling the ball into Bellinghams (?) feet, who can pass the ball first time into Stones, who is in acres of space with multiple players ahead of him in a ready made overload position.

But instead, Jordan 'Pirlo' Pickford goes for the Hollywood smasheroonie yet again.

: Screenshot 2024-07-16 174153.png (65.54 KiB) Viewed 271 times

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:47 pm**

Was this the one where Pickford punted it long and then a whistle went and he cried?

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:13 pm**

I wasn't sure if this was a real memory or not. But it's true. 1990 World Cup semi final losers, England, were rewarded with an open top bus parade and celebration.

Wild.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2024 10:04 pm**

The clip just underlines how negative we are. The ball just has to go into the box or result in a chance. I wonder if they have a Throw Ins Coach?

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