Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:15 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:02 am Is refusing to attend court for sentencing a relatively new trend? Sure it's not something that people have suddenly discovered they can do but you never used to hear about it as far as I can recall.

It is their only remaining act of defiance against the system and often designed to cause further trauma to friends and family of the victim.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:14 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:00 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:56 am As many guards as required should drag her into court to face the music. There are no new laws required here. They should film the whole process as evidence of proper conduct.

As there are no current powers to use force to make someone attend a court room, the moment the guards touch a prisoner for such purposes they are committing a criminal offence and by filming it, they would be providing the evidence to convict themselves.

This is why anyone who knows anything about the law knows that to be able to force someone into courtroom you need new laws

There are powers already and if the judge directs, even more powers.

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:47 am Have there been psychological assessments on the nurse? Will she be sent to a “normal” prison or a secure unit for the criminally insane?

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:59 am Why is that a false dichotomy, pray?

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:35 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:14 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:00 am

As there are no current powers to use force to make someone attend a court room, the moment the guards touch a prisoner for such purposes they are committing a criminal offence and by filming it, they would be providing the evidence to convict themselves.

This is why anyone who knows anything about the law knows that to be able to force someone into courtroom you need new laws

There are powers already and if the judge directs, even more powers.

You are simply wrong. The judges do not have the power and they have said so on many recent cases where prisoners refuse to come into the court.

If you think they have the power, then please state the relevant legislation that provides this power as the courts and judiciary do not know of it. Indeed in his daily email, the respected lawyer and legal journalist Joshua Rosenberg has written at length about this quoting various Legal Sources including MrJustice Goss, the trial Judge (and also a High Court Judge), the former Justice Secretary Robert Buckland, the blogger "the Secret Barrister" and others. Also, the current Justice Secretary is looking into introducing laws to force criminals into the dock.

Now it doesn't take a genius to realise there would be no need to introduce a law to force prisoners into the dock if such a law existed. It is strange that all these learned people, experts in the law fail to know of a legal power that only Lenny on this forum knows of ( and he won't reveal where this power originates from)


Whether you want the Judges to have such powers, at present they do not have such powers

CEB wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:04 am

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:59 am Why is that a false dichotomy, pray?

I’ll deal with each part:

It’s a “dichotomy” because you’ve presented just two options: “normal prison” and “secure unit for the criminally insane” - that’s the “dichotomy” part.

It’s “false” because “normal prison” and “secure unit for the criminally insane” are not the only two options for the form of her incarceration;

Therefore “false dichotomy”

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:25 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:35 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:14 am


There are powers already and if the judge directs, even more powers.

You are simply wrong. The judges do not have the power and they have said so on many recent cases where prisoners refuse to come into the court.

If you think they have the power, then please state the relevant legislation that provides this power as the courts and judiciary do not know of it. Indeed in his daily email, the respected lawyer and legal journalist Joshua Rosenberg has written at length about this quoting various Legal Sources including MrJustice Goss, the trial Judge (and also a High Court Judge), the former Justice Secretary Robert Buckland, the blogger "the Secret Barrister" and others. Also, the current Justice Secretary is looking into introducing laws to force criminals into the dock.

Now it doesn't take a genius to realise there would be no need to introduce a law to force prisoners into the dock if such a law existed. It is strange that all these learned people, experts in the law fail to know of a legal power that only Lenny on this forum knows of ( and he won't reveal where this power originates from)


Whether you want the Judges to have such powers, at present they do not have such powers

Common Law dictates but the actual practicalities and reality of dragging a determined prisoner kicking and screaming before a judge is traumatic for everyone including the prison and court staff and of course the victim’s families. The judge will be interrupted with a screaming prisoner while he is trying to pass sentence , possibly prisoner spitting, biting and anything else. This knee jerk response, more laws ignores the reality in the real world.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:56 am As many guards as required should drag her into court to face the music. There are no new laws required here. They should film the whole process as evidence of proper conduct.

Dunners wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 12:16 pm Here we go. I'm only surprised it's taken this long.

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 12:00 pm

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:56 am As many guards as required should drag her into court to face the music. There are no new laws required here. They should film the whole process as evidence of proper conduct.

It’s not a game show.

Bizarre comment.

Why is it bizarre? The Court need to film it to ensure they can be seen to have conducted themselves professionally. I think in Fred West case, he took the easy way out but his wife was in the dock listening to the judge.

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:39 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:25 am

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:35 am


You are simply wrong. The judges do not have the power and they have said so on many recent cases where prisoners refuse to come into the court.

If you think they have the power, then please state the relevant legislation that provides this power as the courts and judiciary do not know of it. Indeed in his daily email, the respected lawyer and legal journalist Joshua Rosenberg has written at length about this quoting various Legal Sources including MrJustice Goss, the trial Judge (and also a High Court Judge), the former Justice Secretary Robert Buckland, the blogger "the Secret Barrister" and others. Also, the current Justice Secretary is looking into introducing laws to force criminals into the dock.

Now it doesn't take a genius to realise there would be no need to introduce a law to force prisoners into the dock if such a law existed. It is strange that all these learned people, experts in the law fail to know of a legal power that only Lenny on this forum knows of ( and he won't reveal where this power originates from)


Whether you want the Judges to have such powers, at present they do not have such powers

Common Law dictates but the actual practicalities and reality of dragging a determined prisoner kicking and screaming before a judge is traumatic for everyone including the prison and court staff and of course the victim’s families. The judge will be interrupted with a screaming prisoner while he is trying to pass sentence , possibly prisoner spitting, biting and anything else. This knee jerk response, more laws ignores the reality in the real world.

Common Law does not provide the power to force anyone into the court room.

You are the only person who thinks this.

Judges, Justice Secretaries, Legal Practitioners and Legal Academics all disagree with you.


Even more incredible you are arguing against introducing a power to enable prisoners to be forced into court rooms

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:41 pm

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:39 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:25 am


Common Law dictates but the actual practicalities and reality of dragging a determined prisoner kicking and screaming before a judge is traumatic for everyone including the prison and court staff and of course the victim’s families. The judge will be interrupted with a screaming prisoner while he is trying to pass sentence , possibly prisoner spitting, biting and anything else. This knee jerk response, more laws ignores the reality in the real world.

Common Law does not provide the power to force anyone into the court room.

You are the only person who thinks this.

Judges, Justice Secretaries, Legal Practitioners and Legal Academics all disagree with you.


Even more incredible you are arguing against introducing a power to enable prisoners to be forced into court rooms

It says the powers exist in todays Telegraph.

I know of other cases in the past where people have been dragged up to face the judge. It is no easy task.

CEB wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:42 pm Someone should tell Keir Starmer to read the telegraph as he wants the law changed!

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:39 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:42 pm Someone should tell Keir Starmer to read the telegraph as he wants the law changed!

Need to tell all legal profession to speak to Lenny on the Internet as he knows the position unlike them