Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 am**

Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:31 am
Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:25 am When was the last time we beat a top team in a major tournament though? I can only think of Argentina in the 2002 World Cup.

Any team with a midfield that can dominate possession is very likely to beat us
Exactly. We're a decent, hard-to-beat, 2nd-tier national team. We're never going to set a tournament alight but, can usually expect to progress until we meet a 1st-tier team. At that point, unless we have an amazing day and they a horrid one, we're going out. Nothing to be ashamed of in that.

This is the inevitable over correction against the absurd expectations we tend to have. Likes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years. There should be a way you can fashion a team that manages to compensate for the obvious shortcomings in central midfield (though granted I've been saying that all my life).

I get that we are a level below your France or Germany's. But that makes the stodginess of the football even worse in a way. If we aren't going to do anything at these tournaments, we might as well have some fun in the process. 1/3rd of goals scored by an Englishman at a major tournament this summer have been by a Chilean ffs.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:56 am**

That is a shade cryptic - who is the Chilean?

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:01 am**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 am

I get that we are a level below your France or Germany's. But that makes the stodginess of the football even worse in a way. If we aren't going to do anything at these tournaments, we might as well have some fun in the process. 1/3rd of goals scored by an Englishman at a major tournament this summer have been by a Chilean ffs.

From a fan's perspective, maybe. I get that. Although I'd expect that if we "turned on the style" but still went out in the group stages they'd be as much disgruntlement.

But I imagine the FA love consistency. Sven was a dream to them as they were able to provide a decent level of assurance to sponsors of exposure through to the quarter finals of most tournaments. However the football we played under him was dreary as f***.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:03 am**

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:48 am
one o in huntingdon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:42 am
Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:36 am I am hoping for an England/Germany tie. A proper game of football and Southgate takes the shackles off.
There are no shackles to be taken off, who or what do you think is being held back?

I'm hoping we get ripped apart and get shot of this defensive rubbish along with Southgate.
What about starting with Foden, Saka and Grealish? Drop Rice, for one. It seems to me that the afore mentioned three players go out on the pitch without fear. If we lose, we lose, but at least the good name of football is not ruined.

I do agree, but when we burst forward our lacklustre centre forward will still be languishing behind the play.
Too many of our players are not suited to a more dynamic game, Maguire looks like something from a Leeds team of the 70's

Wouldn't it be nice to actually look forward to watching England?
Something like the Netherlands v Ukraine or Denmark V Russia for instance rather than the turgid cackfest we endure every game

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:05 am**

Hymn Sheet: we share our lament....

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:09 am**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 amLikes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years.

Kane (and Grealish) excepted, they're all bit part players in their clubs successes rather than the driving force. And Kane (and Grealish) isn't at one of the big clubs.

We're weak at centre half and weak at cdm. Southgate therefore has no choice but to play 2 holding defensive midfielders.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:16 am**

Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:09 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 amLikes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years.
Kane (and Grealish) excepted, they're all bit part players in their clubs successes rather than the driving force. And Kane (and Grealish) isn't at one of the big clubs.

We're weak at centre half and weak at cdm. Southgate therefore has no choice but to play 2 holding defensive midfielders.

What a crock of sh!t they have not been bit parts, at all.

Bellingham will be the answer to our problems in the middle, just a bit too young at the moment

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:18 am**

tuffers#1 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:21 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:39 pm
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:26 pm

Based on Germany's games so far, their defence is slow as hell and their wing backs leave acres of room open defensively. If Sterling gets the right supply, it's the sort of situation where he is most effective and his England form has been fantastic for a while now. England would still get mullered, both literally and figuratively as their midfield would dance rings around us, but we'd get our fair share of chances.

There's a lot of similarities to how we and Portugal set up imo, think the end result would be pretty similar.
Portugal who Germany comfortably beat 4-2 and who’s full back scored and the other got 2 assists?
Yes but they still have Ronaldo .
https://youtube.com/shorts/FRukXcZY_RQ?feature=share

England have Saka, apparently

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:20 am**

I felt Mings was unlucky to be dropped, as he had two solid performances under his belt, and the fact he was replaced by Maguire, peeves me even more, as i dont rate Maguire very highly.
my views on the 'Kane debate'. I think all the many ankle injuries that Kane has suffered have slowed him down a little, and it shows at this level. i think he will continue to 'deteriorate' as he gets older. He's a shadow of the Kane from a couple of years ago IMO, but he will continue to play, because 'he's done well for England in the recent past'.
Another player woefully off form is Rashford

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:23 am**

Give it to Jabo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:56 am That is a shade cryptic - who is the Chilean?

Ben Brereton.

Scored against Bolivia in the Copa America. Won the U19 Euros with England in 2017

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:29 am**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:07 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:39 pm
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:26 pm

Based on Germany's games so far, their defence is slow as hell and their wing backs leave acres of room open defensively. If Sterling gets the right supply, it's the sort of situation where he is most effective and his England form has been fantastic for a while now. England would still get mullered, both literally and figuratively as their midfield would dance rings around us, but we'd get our fair share of chances.

There's a lot of similarities to how we and Portugal set up imo, think the end result would be pretty similar.
Portugal who Germany comfortably beat 4-2 and who’s full back scored and the other got 2 assists?
Portugal who scored twice and got behind Germany's defence time and time again despite being totally outclassed. Clearly not saying I think it'd mean we'd win, but that playing on the counter against gung ho wing backs and a slow central defence is the sort of situation that suits our wingers pretty well.

They scored a great goal on the counter attack from their own box. The other one was a 6 yard box tap in. I think Portugal played a lot better than the scoreline suggested though. Even France with Mbappe only scored 1 through an own goal.

All of England’s wide players cut inside, I’m not sure Germany will be worried about them being burned down the wing.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:54 am**

Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:31 am
Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:25 am When was the last time we beat a top team in a major tournament though? I can only think of Argentina in the 2002 World Cup.

Any team with a midfield that can dominate possession is very likely to beat us
Exactly. We're a decent, hard-to-beat, 2nd-tier national team. We're never going to set a tournament alight but, can usually expect to progress until we meet a 1st-tier team. At that point, unless we have an amazing day and they a horrid one, we're going out. Nothing to be ashamed of in that.
This is the inevitable over correction against the absurd expectations we tend to have. Likes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years. There should be a way you can fashion a team that manages to compensate for the obvious shortcomings in central midfield (though granted I've been saying that all my life).

I get that we are a level below your France or Germany's. But that makes the stodginess of the football even worse in a way. If we aren't going to do anything at these tournaments, we might as well have some fun in the process. 1/3rd of goals scored by an Englishman at a major tournament this summer have been by a Chilean ffs.

Yeah but CM is the hardest area on the pitch to hide weaknesses in. You can get away with it against the lesser sides but deep into tournaments you’re bound to come up against a quality side who can exploit it

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying we have no chance of winning the thing - we have the attacking talent to cause any teams problems, but they can’t do anything if we can’t get the ball

Except the obvious anomaly of Greece in 2004, I can’t think of any tournament winners - or top sides that have knocked us out - that haven’t had a top class CM. Modric helped Croatia pass us off the park in 2018, Pirlo and Italy passed us to death in 2012, Germany in 2010, even Belgium comfortably had the better of us twice in 2018 too

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:57 am**

Actually come to think of it Portugal at the last euros are probably the only team not to have that a midfielder of that calibre, and their approach was not that different to ours

Don’t forget they shithoused their way out of the group in 3rd place with 3 draws too...

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:58 am**

BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:29 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:07 am
BiggsyMalone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:39 pm
Portugal who Germany comfortably beat 4-2 and who’s full back scored and the other got 2 assists?
Portugal who scored twice and got behind Germany's defence time and time again despite being totally outclassed. Clearly not saying I think it'd mean we'd win, but that playing on the counter against gung ho wing backs and a slow central defence is the sort of situation that suits our wingers pretty well.
They scored a great goal on the counter attack from their own box. The other one was a 6 yard box tap in. I think Portugal played a lot better than the scoreline suggested though. Even France with Mbappe only scored 1 through an own goal.

All of England’s wide players cut inside, I’m not sure Germany will be worried about them being burned down the wing.

As do Portugal. We'll have been watching different games if you don't think Germany look very vulnerable defensively. Problem is they look so strong everywhere else.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:04 am**

Jack wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:20 am I felt Mings was unlucky to be dropped, as he had two solid performances under his belt, and the fact he was replaced by Maguire, peeves me even more, as i dont rate Maguire very highly.
my views on the 'Kane debate'. I think all the many ankle injuries that Kane has suffered have slowed him down a little, and it shows at this level. i think he will continue to 'deteriorate' as he gets older. He's a shadow of the Kane from a couple of years ago IMO, but he will continue to play, because 'he's done well for England in the recent past'.
Another player woefully off form is Rashford

I don’t think that Rashford is woefully off form but more a case of not being good enough.
Another, like Danny Welbeck and Tom Cleverly, who gets England caps on the back of playing for Man United.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:06 am**

Adz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:16 am
Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:09 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 amLikes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years.
Kane (and Grealish) excepted, they're all bit part players in their clubs successes rather than the driving force. And Kane (and Grealish) isn't at one of the big clubs.

We're weak at centre half and weak at cdm. Southgate therefore has no choice but to play 2 holding defensive midfielders.
What a crock of sh!t they have not been bit parts, at all.

Bellingham will be the answer to our problems in the middle, just a bit too young at the moment

While not quite bit parts they are not the star players either but behind the foreign players in their squads.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:14 am**

Mount is arguably Chelsea’s most important player

Maguire is Man U’s number one CB (though tend to agree he’s pretty overhyped)

Stones has been a regular in city’s team

None of those are behind other players foreign or otherwise in their squads, and def not bit part players

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:29 am**

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:54 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 am
Dunners wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:31 am

Exactly. We're a decent, hard-to-beat, 2nd-tier national team. We're never going to set a tournament alight but, can usually expect to progress until we meet a 1st-tier team. At that point, unless we have an amazing day and they a horrid one, we're going out. Nothing to be ashamed of in that.
This is the inevitable over correction against the absurd expectations we tend to have. Likes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years. There should be a way you can fashion a team that manages to compensate for the obvious shortcomings in central midfield (though granted I've been saying that all my life).

I get that we are a level below your France or Germany's. But that makes the stodginess of the football even worse in a way. If we aren't going to do anything at these tournaments, we might as well have some fun in the process. 1/3rd of goals scored by an Englishman at a major tournament this summer have been by a Chilean ffs.
Yeah but CM is the hardest area on the pitch to hide weaknesses in. You can get away with it against the lesser sides but deep into tournaments you’re bound to come up against a quality side who can exploit it

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying we have no chance of winning the thing - we have the attacking talent to cause any teams problems, but they can’t do anything if we can’t get the ball

Except the obvious anomaly of Greece in 2004, I can’t think of any tournament winners - or top sides that have knocked us out - that haven’t had a top class CM. Modric helped Croatia pass us off the park in 2018, Pirlo and Italy passed us to death in 2012, Germany in 2010, even Belgium comfortably had the better of us twice in 2018 too

I agree, but to a certain extent you can counter lacking a top class central midfielder through a slick pressing set up. Liverpool won the champions League with Henderson and Milner as their key CMs. But cause Kane can't really move anymore, we can't press as a team. The gaps when Saka or Sterling pressure the opposition defender on the ball and the next receiver are enormous.

I think there's an argument to be made that going with DCL or Sterling as false 9 would give us a lot more energy and cohesion in pressing the opposition, which would make the lack of a deep lying playmaker less of an issue because you'd smother the opposition.

But all easier said and done. Would take massive cajones for Southgate to drop his top scorer and captain.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:34 am**

Millennial Snowflake wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:14 am Mount is arguably Chelsea’s most important player

Maguire is Man U’s number one CB (though tend to agree he’s pretty overhyped)

Stones has been a regular in city’s team

None of those are behind other players foreign or otherwise in their squads, and def not bit part players

I wouldn’t say that Stones has been a regular as Pep as had periods where he has not trusted him.
38 appearances over the last 2 seasons is only 50%.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:36 am**

Adz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:16 am
Ronnie Hotdogs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:09 am
Mistadobalina wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:54 amLikes of Foden, Mount, Sterling, Stones, Walker, James, Chillwell, Maguire, Henderson and Kane have all been key players in teams that have reached European finals in the last few years.
Kane (and Grealish) excepted, they're all bit part players in their clubs successes rather than the driving force. And Kane (and Grealish) isn't at one of the big clubs.

We're weak at centre half and weak at cdm. Southgate therefore has no choice but to play 2 holding defensive midfielders.
What a crock of sh!t they have not been bit parts, at all.

Bellingham will be the answer to our problems in the middle, just a bit too young at the moment

Not one of them is the main man at their club, Kane and Grealish excluded.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:38 am**

The only two whose absence has a direct impact on their teams results and performances are Grealish and Kane and neither Spurs or Villa are what you could call top sides.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:39 am**

I would just like to see us attack and have a go at teams, we look terrified of losing the ball.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:46 am**

I don't get all this fixation on being the "main man" at their club. Maybe each club should have a poll on their message boards and the winner ends up playing for England?

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:48 am**

By the definition Orny and RD are using, there are maybe 20 players in the world that count, none of them full backs or wingers.

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:50 am**

Prestige Worldwide wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:39 am I would just like to see us attack and have a go at teams, we look terrified of losing the ball.

Yep we do, bung Foden Grealish Mount( if available ) Saka all in,one holding midfielder,take Kane out put Calvert-Lewin in and just go for it. Hold on forgot it’s Southgate,sod it 433 it is and 8 defenders,bugger

Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate

Re: Clueless Southgate