Independent Leyton Orient Forum

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 7:30 pm Before my time. What were the lies in 1975?

That the Bay City Rollers were a good band.

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 2:15 pm

CreamofSumYungGai wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:42 pm That's because they don't understand the repercussions of no deal.

And you don't understand the repercussions by staying in. You have no idea what those Eurocrats are drumming up in their minds for the future.
So maybe you lot are dumb too.

Us lot? I’m not a remainer, if that’s what you’re thinking.

That lot then.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 7:30 pm Before my time. What were the lies in 1975?

It was all only going to be about trade and that's it . Ted Heath later admitted it was also going to be about political and monetary union but by then the vote had already been taken . If you truth had have been told back then , then I believe we would never had joined in the first place .

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10488 ... -entry-spt

EH16 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 4:00 pm

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 pm
You are so wrong if you took the time to speak to the people who voted Brexit instead of slagging everyone off who disagrees with you, you will find most if not all just wanted out, walk away, give them nothing, in other words NO DEAL

Yes, well said point nine.
This is so easy.

You are so wrong if you took the time to speak to the people who voted Brexit instead of slagging everyone off who disagrees with you, you will find most if not all just wanted out, walk away, give them nothing, in other words NO DEAL - You have no more spoken to 17M people than I have so your assertion is meaningless.

Didn't claim I had spoke to 17 M people. However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, since before and after the referendum, during run up to referendum it was clear what the public was thinking and how they would vote, you are just another remoaner who clearly thought they know better and can't stand the fact Joe Soap knows better than you

Didn’t one of Hitlers right hand men have this all worked back back then? Can’t think of his name, but I’m sure that he was the orchestra for what we now face?

I believe in democracy

DuvB wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:42 am I believe in democracy

Excellent, another advocate for a second ref. Knew there were more out more on the Board, silent majority and all that.

RedDwarf 1881 wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 12:57 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 7:30 pm Before my time. What were the lies in 1975?

It was all only going to be about trade and that's it . Ted Heath later admitted it was also going to be about political and monetary union but by then the vote had already been taken . If you truth had have been told back then , then I believe we would never had joined in the first place .

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10488 ... -entry-spt

No offence, but I'm not going to click on any Express links.

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 2:53 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm

Chief crazy horse wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 4:00 pm
Yes, well said point nine.
This is so easy.

You are so wrong if you took the time to speak to the people who voted Brexit instead of slagging everyone off who disagrees with you, you will find most if not all just wanted out, walk away, give them nothing, in other words NO DEAL - You have no more spoken to 17M people than I have so your assertion is meaningless.

Didn't claim I had spoke to 17 M people. However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, since before and after the referendum, during run up to referendum it was clear what the public was thinking and how they would vote, you are just another remoaner who clearly thought they know better and can't stand the fact Joe Soap knows better than you

Is it really any wonder I consider myself smarter than you when you continue to make unsupported assertions.

However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, - you have no knowledge of what I do every day, you're just making a statement with no basis in fact.


it was clear what the public was thinking First, not that clear since the vote was NOT the massive majority people like you are now making it out to be. Second, have you STILL not grasped that what leavers were thinking was based on A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES

Joe Soap knows better than you No, he doesn't (see above re A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES)

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:50 am

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 2:53 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm

You are so wrong if you took the time to speak to the people who voted Brexit instead of slagging everyone off who disagrees with you, you will find most if not all just wanted out, walk away, give them nothing, in other words NO DEAL - You have no more spoken to 17M people than I have so your assertion is meaningless.

Didn't claim I had spoke to 17 M people. However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, since before and after the referendum, during run up to referendum it was clear what the public was thinking and how they would vote, you are just another remoaner who clearly thought they know better and can't stand the fact Joe Soap knows better than you

Is it really any wonder I consider myself smarter than you when you continue to make unsupported assertions.

However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, - you have no knowledge of what I do every day, you're just making a statement with no basis in fact.


it was clear what the public was thinking First, not that clear since the vote was NOT the massive majority people like you are now making it out to be. Second, have you STILL not grasped that what leavers were thinking was based on A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES

Joe Soap knows better than you No, he doesn't (see above re A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES)

If you were in close contact with the public how come you couldn't see they were going to vote brexit. How much of a win do you want for you to accept democracy, Do you remember the pack of lies in the government leaflet sent to us all illegally, promising us all an emergency budget within days, mass unemployment, failing economy disaster all round, we was even promised a third world war, this was project fear which Joe Soap saw through and rejected soundly. It was a disgrace that a British government set out to scare the population with all their lies, but you Conveniently forget that.

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:13 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:50 am

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 2:53 am
Didn't claim I had spoke to 17 M people. However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, since before and after the referendum, during run up to referendum it was clear what the public was thinking and how they would vote, you are just another remoaner who clearly thought they know better and can't stand the fact Joe Soap knows better than you

Is it really any wonder I consider myself smarter than you when you continue to make unsupported assertions.

However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, - you have no knowledge of what I do every day, you're just making a statement with no basis in fact.


it was clear what the public was thinking First, not that clear since the vote was NOT the massive majority people like you are now making it out to be. Second, have you STILL not grasped that what leavers were thinking was based on A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES

Joe Soap knows better than you No, he doesn't (see above re A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES)

If you were in close contact with the public how come you couldn't see they were going to vote brexit. How much of a win do you want for you to accept democracy, Do you remember the pack of lies in the government leaflet sent to us all illegally, promising us all an emergency budget within days, mass unemployment, failing economy disaster all round, we was even promised a third world war, this was project fear which Joe Soap saw through and rejected soundly. It was a disgrace that a British government set out to scare the population with all their lies, but you Conveniently forget that.

you forgot to mention not joining the EURO would see us falling of the edge of the world.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:46 am
Excellent, another advocate for a second ref. Knew there were more out more on the Board, silent majority and all that.

I would say an advocate for implementing the results of the original referendum.

To keep voting until MPs get a result they are happy with is not a democracy and will likely kill politics in this country as people wake up to what a self centred bunch all of these shysters of all parties are.

So let's have a second referendum then, take it out the MPs hands. Three options:

Leave with an agreed deal
Leave on WTO terms
Remain

Couldn't be more democratic.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:59 am So let's have a second referendum then, take it out the MPs hands.

That should have been the outcome of the original vote.

To come together and negotiate the best deal to implement the wishes of the majority that voted. Not to delay to suit their own agendas.

Personally I can't see the point of voting anymore if the outcome is not respected.

greyhound wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:27 am

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:13 am

EH16 wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 8:50 am

Is it really any wonder I consider myself smarter than you when you continue to make unsupported assertions.

However unlike you I speak to the public everyday, - you have no knowledge of what I do every day, you're just making a statement with no basis in fact.


it was clear what the public was thinking First, not that clear since the vote was NOT the massive majority people like you are now making it out to be. Second, have you STILL not grasped that what leavers were thinking was based on A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES

Joe Soap knows better than you No, he doesn't (see above re A COMPLETE PACK OF LIES)

If you were in close contact with the public how come you couldn't see they were going to vote brexit. How much of a win do you want for you to accept democracy, Do you remember the pack of lies in the government leaflet sent to us all illegally, promising us all an emergency budget within days, mass unemployment, failing economy disaster all round, we was even promised a third world war, this was project fear which Joe Soap saw through and rejected soundly. It was a disgrace that a British government set out to scare the population with all their lies, but you Conveniently forget that.

you forgot to mention not joining the EURO would see us falling of the edge of the world.

That's right, we would all be plunging into the abyss.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:59 am So let's have a second referendum then, take it out the MPs hands. Three options:

Leave with an agreed deal
Leave on WTO terms
Remain

Couldn't be more democratic.

Couldn't be more democratic if remoaners accepted result of first Referendum.
Clever idea of yours to split leave vote so Remoaners have biggest percentage vote, you only want democracy on your terms

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:19 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:59 am So let's have a second referendum then, take it out the MPs hands. Three options:

Leave with an agreed deal
Leave on WTO terms
Remain

Couldn't be more democratic.

Couldn't be more democratic if remoaners accepted result of first Referendum.
Clever idea of yours to split leave vote so Remoaners have biggest percentage vote, you only want democracy on your terms

Ah, so you're not actually interested in people having their say? Thanks for clarifying.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:02 am

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:19 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:59 am So let's have a second referendum then, take it out the MPs hands. Three options:

Leave with an agreed deal
Leave on WTO terms
Remain

Couldn't be more democratic.

Couldn't be more democratic if remoaners accepted result of first Referendum.
Clever idea of yours to split leave vote so Remoaners have biggest percentage vote, you only want democracy on your terms

Ah, so you're not actually interested in people having their say? Thanks for clarifying.

For goodness sake!
People HAD their say with the original referendum. That was democracy and the result should have been carried out. No ifs no buts.
What IS your problem in not accepting the result?

Winchesterfan wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:10 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:02 am

point nine one eight wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:19 am
Couldn't be more democratic if remoaners accepted result of first Referendum.
Clever idea of yours to split leave vote so Remoaners have biggest percentage vote, you only want democracy on your terms

Ah, so you're not actually interested in people having their say? Thanks for clarifying.

For goodness sake!
People HAD their say with the original referendum. That was democracy and the result should have been carried out. No ifs no buts.
What IS your problem in not accepting the result?

This exactly.

Trouble with PJ and people like him they want what they want and so they want to ignore the democratic will of the people cos it don't fit in with their agenda. If leave had lost then I'd have been, cool it's done we move on.

The government has tried to take us out of the EU three times already. It is the hard Brexiteers on the Tory right, who are looking to protect their reputations by standing behind the impossibility of what they promised, that have blocked it.

Prioritising exit over every other consideration is such an obviously terrible policy that it's hard to argue against. It's total fantasy. If Brexit were to be a success, i think you'd need a few years to take a proper run at it, making the correct preparations and having a clear negotiation line agreed internally. Instead it's a process being totally dominated by emotion and the child like delusion that Brexit is merely a question of political will, of wanting it enough.

The conspiratorial tone of all this is f*cked frankly. There's no bringing the country back together when a huge chunk of it is convinced that every gear of the nation state is collaborating in a plot against them. That's how democracies erode.

Thor wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:46 am

Winchesterfan wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:10 am

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:02 am

Ah, so you're not actually interested in people having their say? Thanks for clarifying.

For goodness sake!
People HAD their say with the original referendum. That was democracy and the result should have been carried out. No ifs no buts.
What IS your problem in not accepting the result?

This exactly.

Trouble with PJ and people like him they want what they want and so they want to ignore the democratic will of the people cos it don't fit in with their agenda. If leave had lost then I'd have been, cool it's done we move on.

Trouble with people like yourselves posting in this thread is you are simplifying the most complex constitutional and political problem in a century into the line 'the people have spoken.' There's no hint of acknowledgement of the scale of the task. This isn't just about leaving the political institutions of the EU, it's about rewiring the entire economic, political and cultural framework of a country of 65 million odd. And you keep boiling that down into soundbites. Impossible to take that seriously really.

To Winchy & Co: But it was a too-simple binary remain/leave choice, whilst the actual choices (both sides, really) was far more complex than that. And the very close 52/48 result means to me we shouldn’t be pursuing an extreme leave option.

Even Farage was touting the Norway option during the referendum, and only since has he been blathering on about no deal instead. I agree with Prop J a confirmatory vote on the 3 main options: a soft leave deal like May’s or whatever she can agree with Labour, crash out with no deal, or remain (but keep steering clear of further political federalism), with a STV to establish 2nd choice, is the best way out of this mess. And I wasn’t a remain voter either.

I never said it was an easy negotiation, I understand the complexity involved, but before we even get to that point the remainers have to accept that the decision to leave was made through a democratic vote.

Now the PM is doing a piss poir job of getting this country a good deal, it's a really bad deal over so many areas we might as just well stay as we are. She was offered a free trade deal and turned it down why, I don't know. She insisted on the backstop arrangement again why, I dont know. Until we know what's been agreed the next stage can't even be thought about. It might need another referendum, but until the picture becomes clearer we should wait. The 2nd referendum group also advocates that's stance and whilst the first should be respected, they are quite correct in waiting to see what the options to Brexit are before moving forwards with any kind of plans or calls or pressure.

It looks like the cross party talks will collapse today with the Tories withdrawing from them. Labour backbenchers are rounding on Corbyn for his handling on the subject and for not making a stance clear, we all know he's a brexiteer at heart, but his party is remainer at heart so theres conflict there. Labour just dont want the people to realise how divided they actually are and hope to steal power on the sly.

It all amounts to a mess quite frankly.