I abide by the democratic vote of the people of the UK three years ago, I accept the result and that we will leave the EU in the same way that I would have accepted a remain vote through the same democratic voting process.
It is the duty of elected MP's to carry through the will of the people the fact they cant do this without the drastic measure being taken by Boris reflects badly on Parliament and the selfish agendas and politicing that have been prevalent through the whole process so far.
It's hardly the will of the people when its finely balanced at 52/48 and its not the will of the Scottish or NI people who voted to remain. The referendum is not constitutional.
Its false to state that you would have accepted the outcome of the vote had it gone the other way because the Brexiteers are on record as saying they would fight on to achieve their aims.
In a representative democracy it is NOT the duty of parliament to carry out the "will of the people" as represented by a referendum. One, because that is not how representative democracy works. Two, it is not constitutional. Three, it is not actually the will of the people given that two of the countries in the UK voted to remain and 30% did not vote at all.
To describe the MPs as having "selfish agendas" is to fundementally disrespect democracy and misunderstand politics and how it works. They may not agree with you and they might represent the position of people you disagree with but they aren't doing it for selfish reasons they are representing a section of society. Calling them selfish is just childish.
Max don't tell me that I wouldn't have accepted a remain vote because I would have. There would not have been anywhere near this fracas If remain had of won. You can't blame leavers if a large number of people chose to vote the result would probably have been different if a number of remainers had bothered to vote but that was their democratic choice not to vote and so be it.
It is absolutely the duty of parliament to carry out the will of the people, If you don't think that MPs have been following their own agendas during Brexit vote then you haven't been paying attention. As for Scotland are you not still part of the UK? didn't you have a vote to decide that or perhaps that was un democratic too. Introducing the Scotland didn't want it argument is doing just what a lot of MPs are doing introducing your own agenda into a UK wide decision isn't it?
We had a simple black or white in/out vote and those who bothered to vote chose out. That's democracy block it all you like
But that was the decision of the people.
It's the duty of parliament to do what's best for this country. If the Tories said they were going to scrap the NHS, would you accept proroguing?
There was a binary choice and the people who campaigned for it spoke about many different ways of leaving the EU and a no-deal brexit was part of 'project fear'. Now you're convinced that no-deal is what you wanted all along, despite calling it project fear 3 years ago.
Funny how 'taking back control' is one of the nonsense things spouted, yet we have a dickhead suspending parliament to stifle debate about the future of the country. Taking back control from what exactly? Subverting democracy is what Boris Johnson is doing, not MPs wanting to debate and protect.
You all think you're really clever with your little soundbites you've heard and repeat, as soon as they come under any sort of scrutiny and proved wrong, you resort to 'will of the people' 'leave means leave' 'it was a black and white choice'.
I abide by the democratic vote of the people of the UK three years ago, I accept the result and that we will leave the EU in the same way that I would have accepted a remain vote through the same democratic voting process.
It is the duty of elected MP's to carry through the will of the people the fact they cant do this without the drastic measure being taken by Boris reflects badly on Parliament and the selfish agendas and politicing that have been prevalent through the whole process so far.
It's hardly the will of the people when its finely balanced at 52/48 and its not the will of the Scottish or NI people who voted to remain. The referendum is not constitutional.
Its false to state that you would have accepted the outcome of the vote had it gone the other way because the Brexiteers are on record as saying they would fight on to achieve their aims.
In a representative democracy it is NOT the duty of parliament to carry out the "will of the people" as represented by a referendum. One, because that is not how representative democracy works. Two, it is not constitutional. Three, it is not actually the will of the people given that two of the countries in the UK voted to remain and 30% did not vote at all.
To describe the MPs as having "selfish agendas" is to fundementally disrespect democracy and misunderstand politics and how it works. They may not agree with you and they might represent the position of people you disagree with but they aren't doing it for selfish reasons they are representing a section of society. Calling them selfish is just childish.
Max don't tell me that I wouldn't have accepted a remain vote because I would have. There would not have been anywhere near this fracas If remain had of won. You can't blame leavers if a large number of people chose not to vote.the result would probably have been different if a number of remainers had bothered to vote but that was their democratic choice not to vote and so be it.
It is absolutely the duty of parliament to carry out the will of the people, If you don't think that MPs have been following their own agendas during Brexit vote then you haven't been paying attention. As for Scotland are you not still part of the UK? didn't you have a vote to decide that or perhaps that result was un democratic too. Introducing the Scotland didn't want it argument is doing just what a lot of MPs are doing introducing your own agenda into a UK wide decision isn't it?
We had a simple black or white in/out vote and those who bothered to vote chose out. That's democracy block it all you like
But that was the decision of the people.
I would prefer a slight delay to give the chance of a negotiated exit by Johnson team but the chance of getting anything through parliament is as we have seen remote.
For the reasons I have stated above you fail to understand or accept it isn't democracy nor is it the will of the people. As I have explained those are phoney arguments that don't hold up to scrutiny for any more than 5 seconds.
And there you go again with the personalisation of politics and selfish agenda tripe. Give me a couple of examples.
As far as Scotland and NI is concerned petty English nationalism over Brexit will deliver independence to Scotland and a united Ireland on a plate and for that I'm grateful.
Hope the pro Brexit voters are at least seeing this as proof that we need wholesale democratic reform in this country. The executive should not be allowed to do what they are doing, it is ridiculous
As I always say in these threads, I'd have a lot, lot more time for their stance if it formed part of a wider project of reform of parliament, voting system, devolution, actual democratic renewal. But this is the same country that turned down voting reform earlier this decade, or turned down a regional parliament in the north east. The only movement seems to be to concentrate further and further in the hands of the Tory party, the cause of so many of the reasons we voted leave in the first place...
As long as power remains as heavily concentrated in Westminster, all this talk of believing in Britain is bollox. Nothing about leaving the EU will cure the root causes of why everyone is so angry.
Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am
Sid it is the job of opposition MPs to oppose the ruling party by voting against them, its how it is supposed to work.
Mikero
In a referendum it is a very simple fact, one side losses, other side wins, there is no fight against, the democratic system then is that the country follows the result through to make sure happens. No endless rejection of a democratic vote.
Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am
Sid it is the job of opposition MPs to oppose the ruling party by voting against them, its how it is supposed to work.
Mikero
In a referendum it is a very simple fact, one side losses, other side wins, there is no fight against, the democratic system then is that the country follows the result through to make sure happens. No endless rejection of a democratic vote.
Give it a rest mate. Just realise that you haven't got a feckin' clue and shut up. Read some of the above posts to try and understand why there is only one person acting in a non-democratic way - that's Boris the liar.
The effectiveness of "Corbyn and Abbott" is untested whereas we're witnessing the duplicity and self centred dogma of Boris and RM on an almost daily basis. All you're doing is trotting out Daily Mail/Express soundbites. Try engaging your brain for a change.
The ineffectiveness of Corbyn and Abbott has been demonstrated very clearly. In the case of Abbott, go look on Youtube. She is a joke, but an unfunny one because she could be Home Secretary one day. Not from the Daily Mail. straight from her own mouth.
Utter trot as per usual. Abbott has made herself look daft on a number of occasions and they've been amplified and publicised way more than any other politician of our time. She's been targeted by the press in an attempt to convince the hard of thinking that she's useless. It's not as if Boris and his cronies have never done anything daft is it, but they've never been subjected to the incessant abuse that Abbott has.
She's never been put to the test by being in government. Quite frankly, and in line with what I said about her being untested, she could hardly do any worse than most of the disgracefully inept Tories who've been doing their best to ruin the Country. So, no, Corbyn and Abbott have not demonstrated that they are ineffective. Wrong again Doh'y.
Mikero wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am
Sid it is the job of opposition MPs to oppose the ruling party by voting against them, its how it is supposed to work.
Mikero
In a referendum it is a very simple fact, one side losses, other side wins, there is no fight against, the democratic system then is that the country follows the result through to make sure happens. No endless rejection of a democratic vote.
Give it a rest mate. Just realise that you haven't got a feckin' clue and shut up. Read some of the above posts to try and understand why there is only one person acting in a non-democratic way - that's Boris the liar.
Go back to school and learn about our Democratic system before you try to lecture people, I've more clue than you anyday of the week and while we're about it why don't you shut up
StockholmO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:57 pm
Remainers have been using every possible Parliamentary tactic to delay and obstruct Brexit, Mr Johnson is just playing them at their own game. I sure most people are sick to death of this going on interminably and just want to get on with it so we can get on with our lives.
So MP's who believe in remaining shouldn't oppose Brexit? Really? They've also opposed Brexit within the rules of the parliamentary system we have but now Boris the liar has decided to just close down parliament so that he gets his way. Parliament - who needs it. How can that possibly be right?
This time he's doing it to force through Brexit. Some, like you, see no harm in that, more fool you. What would you say if he uses this method again to push through some awful legislation which you opposed. Would you still think closing parliament was a good thing?
Put the bottle down mate. I'm your side you daft sausage.
StockholmO wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:57 pm
Remainers have been using every possible Parliamentary tactic to delay and obstruct Brexit, Mr Johnson is just playing them at their own game. I sure most people are sick to death of this going on interminably and just want to get on with it so we can get on with our lives.
So MP's who believe in remaining shouldn't oppose Brexit? Really? They've also opposed Brexit within the rules of the parliamentary system we have but now Boris the liar has decided to just close down parliament so that he gets his way. Parliament - who needs it. How can that possibly be right?
This time he's doing it to force through Brexit. Some, like you, see no harm in that, more fool you. What would you say if he uses this method again to push through some awful legislation which you opposed. Would you still think closing parliament was a good thing?
Put the bottle down mate. I'm your side you daft sausage.
Well that's nice to know but somewhat difficult to tell from your postings.
StockholmO wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:13 am
or your muddled ramblings. Comrade. Fight the fight!
Muddled? Coming from someone who professes to be on my side then describes Boris as decisive and what the UK needs ...... I think I'll pass on your support, ta.
