Independent Leyton Orient Forum

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:33 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 12:56 pm

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:38 pm Fast forward 15 years and this will be yet another miscarriage of justice campaign.
The evidence does not seem conclusive enough and I think her legal team will eventually undermine it so much that she will be pardoned.

Do you think they got the wrong person or that the kids all just injected themselves with insulin?

Of course not. I thought the majority of claims involved her injecting air into their blood streams - which seems to be to be a very hard thing to prove beyond reasonable doubt. I just wish there was more of a smoking gun evidence-wise. I wasn’t aware about the insulin aspect so perhaps I’m totally wrong.
She had no previous criminal record and very little in her background and history to suggest that she was capable of killing. Errors can snd do happen in NHS procedures so I do feel that this case could well be re-visited in future on appeal.

Errors happen, but it wasn't a coincidence that she was on duty with every problem that arose.

It sounds like CF barely knows anything about the case yet still “feels” something about it

banqo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:52 pm If anybody thinks this evil bitch can be rehabilitated, then you're deluded.

Point to one person even suggesting that on this thread. You're mad at things that don't exist.

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:37 pm It sounds like CF barely knows anything about the case yet still “feels” something about it

Perhaps so.
I suppose I’d think differently had I listened to all the evidence.
However, the fact remains that she has been convicted upon probabilities (admittedly high probabilities) rather than hard evidence. This could leaveroom for reasonable doubt on appeal

Bizarre

So you don’t think this will go to appeal then?
Let’s see

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:44 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:37 pm It sounds like CF barely knows anything about the case yet still “feels” something about it

Perhaps so.
I suppose I’d think differently had I listened to all the evidence.
However, the fact remains that she has been convicted upon probabilities (admittedly high probabilities) rather than hard evidence. This could leaveroom for reasonable doubt on appeal

So to be clear, you don't know the evidence but you know she has been convicted upon probabilities?

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:44 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:37 pm It sounds like CF barely knows anything about the case yet still “feels” something about it

Perhaps so.
I suppose I’d think differently had I listened to all the evidence.
However, the fact remains that she has been convicted upon probabilities (admittedly high probabilities) rather than hard evidence. This could leaveroom for reasonable doubt on appeal

Not able to let this complete nonsense go unchallenged.

It was a criminal case, so the defendant was convicted on the criminal standard of proof ie beyond all reasonable doubt.

The standard in a civil case is on the balance of probabilities.


Sounds like you do not know the difference between a civil case and a criminal case.


As for hard evidence. ..there has only been many weeks of evidence presented to a jury of her peers. They decided after hearing the evidence she was guilty.

If there was no evidence then the judge would not have allowed the case to go to the jury

So we have both a learned judge & a jury who are satisfied there is sufficient evidence to convict to a criminal standard.

The views of someone on the internet who dies not appear to know the standard of proof needed in a criminal case, or what evidence is, does not give me a great deal of belief there are grounds for an appeal.

Incidentally do you know what the basis of grounds of appeal are? It's not a ground of appeal to say you don't agree with the verdict.


There is not a single thing in this thread so far that points towards any valid ground of appeal

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:59 pm So you don’t think this will go to appeal then?
Let’s see

Why do you think that would prove your point?

Adz wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:54 am

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:44 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:37 pm It sounds like CF barely knows anything about the case yet still “feels” something about it

Perhaps so.
I suppose I’d think differently had I listened to all the evidence.
However, the fact remains that she has been convicted upon probabilities (admittedly high probabilities) rather than hard evidence. This could leaveroom for reasonable doubt on appeal

So to be clear, you don't know the evidence but you know she has been convicted upon probabilities?

You don’t have to be Einstein to realise that a lot of serious errors have been made by the NHS hospitals concerned throughout this process. In fact an inquest into how this could have happened is about to begin.
I don’t know everything about the evidence presented in this case but the whole circumstances whereby she was seemingly green-lighted to continue in her role surely does present her with grounds for appeal. Why were the bosses so sure she was innocent for all that time?
Why is it that the jury were unable to convict on so many of the charges? There must be fine lines here - I’m not saying that I don’t think she did it, but I don’t think it is as cut and dried as the press and media are reporting.
Having just seen that poor bloke that was kept in prison for almost 2 decades when there was evidence to exonerate him, I would not be surprised if a similar thing happens with this.

Truly bizarre

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:44 am

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:59 pm So you don’t think this will go to appeal then?
Let’s see

Why do you think that would prove your point?

No, it would not prove anything.

Without painting myself any more into a corner - my initial point was that I would not be surprised if this case gets revisited in future as a potential miscarriage of justice. I’m not a lawyer and I have not said she is innocent. I merely expressed an opinion based on lack of faith in the judicial process. I seem to have strayed from that somewhat

I agree that (like most) I do not have full knowledge of every nuance of the evidence presented to the court.

Happy to leave it there.

No, you have the least knowledge of anyone here, yet you are making the most confident assertions out of anyone here.

It’s very very weird that you think that the fact it took so long for her to be caught placed doubt on whether she did it, which also means you don’t understand the parts of the case you are aware of.

CF said he's happy to leave it here so let's do so but just couldn't help noticing that the "I know none of the details but here's 10 paras on what I think and/or feel" style he's adopted here would grace any opinion column in our nation's press.

I'll be very surprised if Letby is still alive in a year's time. I think many of the prisoners will go after her, if they get half a chance. She"s got a great future, not.

ContrifibulatoryFred wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:44 pm

CEB wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:37 pm It sounds like CF barely knows anything about the case yet still “feels” something about it

Perhaps so.
I suppose I’d think differently had I listened to all the evidence.
However, the fact remains that she has been convicted upon probabilities (admittedly high probabilities) rather than hard evidence. This could leaveroom for reasonable doubt on appeal

There’s always one …

banqo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:07 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:33 pm Found guilty on 7 counts of murder, 6 of attempted murder. Got to be a rare case of a whole life sentence, surely?

Should be hung, end of.

Look, we’re all shocked, saddened and yes, angry about these tragedies and I don’t think anyone here wants to have her back on the streets in the future, but this isn’t a competition to see who can be the most outraged.

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:17 pm

banqo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:07 pm

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:33 pm Found guilty on 7 counts of murder, 6 of attempted murder. Got to be a rare case of a whole life sentence, surely?

Should be hung, end of.

Look, we’re all shocked, saddened and yes, angry about these tragedies and I don’t think anyone here wants to have her back on the streets in the future, but this isn’t a competition to see who can be the most outraged.

We're all entitled to have an opinion

Neptune's Spear wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:48 pm

FrankOFile wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:17 pm

banqo wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:07 pm

Should be hung, end of.

Look, we’re all shocked, saddened and yes, angry about these tragedies and I don’t think anyone here wants to have her back on the streets in the future, but this isn’t a competition to see who can be the most outraged.

We're all entitled to have an opinion

True, but not all opinions are equal.

As many guards as required should drag her into court to face the music. There are no new laws required here. They should film the whole process as evidence of proper conduct.

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:56 am As many guards as required should drag her into court to face the music. There are no new laws required here. They should film the whole process as evidence of proper conduct.

As there are no current powers to use force to make someone attend a court room, the moment the guards touch a prisoner for such purposes they are committing a criminal offence and by filming it, they would be providing the evidence to convict themselves.

This is why anyone who knows anything about the law knows that to be able to force someone into courtroom you need new laws

Is refusing to attend court for sentencing a relatively new trend? Sure it's not something that people have suddenly discovered they can do but you never used to hear about it as far as I can recall.

spen666 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:00 am

Loin Cloth Lenny wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:56 am As many guards as required should drag her into court to face the music. There are no new laws required here. They should film the whole process as evidence of proper conduct.

As there are no current powers to use force to make someone attend a court room, the moment the guards touch a prisoner for such purposes they are committing a criminal offence and by filming it, they would be providing the evidence to convict themselves.

This is why anyone who knows anything about the law knows that to be able to force someone into courtroom you need new laws

There are powers already and if the judge directs, even more powers.

Proposition Joe wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:02 am Is refusing to attend court for sentencing a relatively new trend? Sure it's not something that people have suddenly discovered they can do but you never used to hear about it as far as I can recall.

It is their only remaining act of defiance against the system and often designed to cause further trauma to friends and family of the victim.

It feels like it’s part of making it theatre. This case is horrific but it’s slightly disturbing how gleeful some men are about what they hope happens to her.

Maybe it’s just me, but removal from society, no prospect of freedom, and being forgotten about, is all we can really do as society. Society isn’t equipped to adequately punish such people, and it’s probably good that it isn’t.

Justice in this case though would be actual consequences for the incompetent, arrogant, dismissive managers who could have stopped her