Football hooliganism

[Fanny]

An Open question for some of the more experienced members of this board. How dangerous was going to football back in the day?

Specifically, I’m asking about the period from the mid 70s up until the late 80s, which is widely considered the dark days of football violence.

I’m asking for a few reasons.

First, I’ve been fortunate enough never to have experienced any serious violence attending football matches. I started going as a kid at the end of the 90s and since then I’ve never seen anything worse than the odd bit of fisticuffs on rare occasions. Never anything very serious and certainly nothing which I would describe as organised. No worse than the stuff you see on a Friday night in town.

Secondly, it’s interesting that during the time period mentioned Orient played in the old money divisions 2, 3 and 4, so must have come up against a large number of different supporters from clubs of various sizes and locations. I’d be interested if fans from this period came across any clubs whose supporters were particularly bad for violence, and if if the division made a difference. For example, i’ve read that when Man United were relegated to the second division in the 70s their fans caused havoc across the country. Did this happen at Brisbane Road too?

Thirdly, I wonder how much hooliganism has been over glamourised by films and books in the past 10-15 years. Films like Green Street and Football Factory make it seem like it’s all a laugh. Whilst the countless hooligan books out there seem like pissing contests where ex-hardmen try to outdo each other with more elaborate stories about their prowess than the next tough nut. But how dangerous was attending football for the normal fan? Specifically, for an Orient fan. As a club we have barely any reputation for trouble (thankfully), but did that stop fans from other clubs having a go when they came to E10?

I suspect that one of the more accurate portrayals of hooliganism is a book called “away days” by Kevin Sampson (later made into a film) about a group of young Tranmere hooligans in the late seventies. Extremely nasty, violent and certainly not glamourous.

Football is completely safe these days. You’d really have to go out of your way to find trouble. At Orient anyway. But I’d just like to hear the experiences from those who were actually there during the peak of hooliganism? Was football a dangerous war zone, where women and children dare not attend. Or was it largely fine apart from certain clubs who would cause trouble?

Do you have any stories of getting caught up in trouble?

[Ronnie Hotdogs]

Was dragged along as a kid in the very late 70s and the whole of the 80s to most home games.

I can remember seeing a handful of incidents in this period. It’s definitely over dramatised.

[Thor]

My old man would not take me to Stamford bridge nor the den due to the potential for violence when I was a boy.

[AckneyAwks]

I think all clubs had their hooligan problems. The O's section used to be in the West stand in front of the old tea bar. If you played against teams such as Cardiff or Millwall you would find them in front of the tea bar. In those days it was called "Taking your End" of the ground. It was a regular thing for West Ham hooligans to turn up knowing they would have a punch up with away fans in and out of the ground.

[tuffers#1]

My Dad Took me to Chelsea & Millwall in the 70s
Never had bit of strife " taking the Millwall end

Me in my 10s & me dad in his 40s .
Just the 2 of us in with so called thugs
Pah !!

Only trouble i ever saw at the Os was late 70s early 80s
When a bunch of fans from cardiff start legging it down the road
after a stabbing. Dont even think it was an O's fan who did the stabbing.
And Leicester going mental in the early 80s.

Missed manure down here & wasnt at the Os Birmingham game.

[LittleMate]

Someone posted up a video of an Orient game from 30-40 years ago. Might have been the Spurs game. Listen and you can hear the crowd responding to off field events by singing "Orient aggro".

Mile End station at 5.30-6pm on a Saturday after a game at Upton Park in the late 1970's was a no go area if you'd been to watch a game or not. As a teenager I was considered fair game and had several very near escapes from a kicking.

[spen666]

West Ham turned up in huge numbers to the Orient v Newcastle game in November 1980 as it was only 6 weeks after a petrol bomb was thrown at St James Park into the West Ham fans in the ground.

A very lively afternoon at Brisbane Road ensued for Newcastle fans.


Fortunately petrol bombs inside football matches in UK never caught on

[jamespevans]

I used to be in the boys pen (not a girl in sight) at Goodison Park in the early 70's. I recall a 2 hour running battle with the stewards as the kids tried to climb out and were thrown back. Strange times.

[tuffers#1]

[Beradogs]

It was pretty bad. I remember Cardiff or maybe Swansea coming. Me and a few lads got out the car and within a few minutes were being chased, punched and kicked, into the shops. We then got to the ground and they had taken over the orient end. As we walked in, orient were in the process of taking it back with cries of east east east London. It would be classed as a riot now. Probably 100 or so, perhaps more, fighting Buckingham town in the FA cup was bad for reasons unknown although the story went that a Buckingham skinhead had a problem with a Leyton black and that’s why a number of the Leyton youth turned up as well as large numbers of skinheads. Probably rubbish but fighting everywhere including on the pitch and a very muddy away end. They were two that I remember well but lots of others and incidents every week. Orient didn’t really have big firm. The difference back then was that you didn’t need to be part of a firm. It was just normal. The best way of summing it up is that as you were watching the game back then people from all sides of the ground would be getting walked around the pitch by the old bill and nicked. Fighting. Racism. General bad behavior. Sometimes 10 a game. Sometimes 20. Sometimes hundreds but week in and week out part of going to football was seeing large numbers of arrests.

[Thor]

Paging OTF members.....

[spen666]

It was just "high spirits"...that and the fact you could get away with it.Most times you never got nicked...if you did it was usually just ejected from the ground, and back in throu5open gate at half time.

The rare occasion you went to court, it was a small fine & your firms legal fund would settle it for you out of the money collected in subs


It all changed when they started locking people up

[slacker]

God, Dominic Sandbrook (presenter of that youtube video) is a terrible historian.

But you had to keep your wits about you both in & around the grounds if you didn’t want to get caught up in it. It just seemed stupid to me, so I avoided it where possible. Yet you could still find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And Orient didn't seem to attract very many herberts, probably because you could “choose” a number of other London clubs with bigger firms and badder reputations if that’s what gave you a buzz.

[Fanny]

God, Dominic Sandbrook (presenter of that youtube video) is a terrible historian.

But you had to keep your wits about you both in & around the grounds if you didn’t want to get caught up in it. It just seemed stupid to me, so I avoided it where possible. Yet you could still find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And Orient didn't seem to attract very many herberts, probably because you could “choose” a number of other London clubs with bigger firms and badder reputations if that’s what gave you a buzz.

You touched on something I was trying to get at here.

If you were just a normal bloke who wanted to watch some football, how easier was it to avoid getting caught up in violence? Did it only occur if you went looking for it?

[tuffers#1]

God, Dominic Sandbrook (presenter of that youtube video) is a terrible historian.

But you had to keep your wits about you both in & around the grounds if you didn’t want to get caught up in it. It just seemed stupid to me, so I avoided it where possible. Yet you could still find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And Orient didn't seem to attract very many herberts, probably because you could “choose” a number of other London clubs with bigger firms and badder reputations if that’s what gave you a buzz.

You touched on something I was trying to get at here.

If you were just a normal bloke who wanted to watch some football, how easier was it to avoid getting caught up in violence? Did it only occur if you went looking for it?

The worst violence in the 70s O's fans would have faced was the QF of the cup away to middlesbro.

Plent took a pasting up there .
Busses bricked , on the way to the coach park


As ive said my Dad took me into the home end of the Millwall terracing in the mid 70s .

We won won & drew the other.

We didnt celebrate but they new we
were not Millwall fans .
They were fine.
Same at the spuds in the 1-1 draw.

[EH16]

God, Dominic Sandbrook (presenter of that youtube video) is a terrible historian.

But you had to keep your wits about you both in & around the grounds if you didn’t want to get caught up in it. It just seemed stupid to me, so I avoided it where possible. Yet you could still find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And Orient didn't seem to attract very many herberts, probably because you could “choose” a number of other London clubs with bigger firms and badder reputations if that’s what gave you a buzz.

You touched on something I was trying to get at here.

If you were just a normal bloke who wanted to watch some football, how easier was it to avoid getting caught up in violence? Did it only occur if you went looking for it?

I can only speak from my own experience but as a regular football watcher in the 70s and 80s (though in Scotland, not England) I'd say you could nearly always avoid any trouble if you wanted to. There was always an element of 'wrong place, wrong time' but if you kept your wits about you it was OK. For me personally the introduction of segregation made things much safer and, though it pains me to praise anything the Thatcher government did, banning alcohol inside grounds was a massive improvement.

[Fanny]

God, Dominic Sandbrook (presenter of that youtube video) is a terrible historian.

But you had to keep your wits about you both in & around the grounds if you didn’t want to get caught up in it. It just seemed stupid to me, so I avoided it where possible. Yet you could still find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And Orient didn't seem to attract very many herberts, probably because you could “choose” a number of other London clubs with bigger firms and badder reputations if that’s what gave you a buzz.

You touched on something I was trying to get at here.

If you were just a normal bloke who wanted to watch some football, how easier was it to avoid getting caught up in violence? Did it only occur if you went looking for it?

I can only speak from my own experience but as a regular football watcher in the 70s and 80s (though in Scotland, not England) I'd say you could nearly always avoid any trouble if you wanted to. There was always an element of 'wrong place, wrong time' but if you kept your wits about you it was OK. For me personally the introduction of segregation made things much safer and, though it pains me to praise anything the Thatcher government did, banning alcohol inside grounds was a massive improvement.

Was segregation not standard? I thought that has been in place since, well, forever.

[spen666]

Still alive and well unfortunately. Trouble yesterday at Blackpool v Fleetwood it seems
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footbal ... eague-one/

[Lucky7]

I remember a few seasons ago Oxford fans trying to kick the gates off the TJS but then there is a bit of bad blood between us innit other than than that I’ve seen the odd splat here and there but nothing really full on

[Walthamsto]

The ones I remember from that era are Stockport away in the cup. We got up there a bit early, went to the ground to check it was still on as it was raining and were ambushed in the streets around the ground. Several young lads got a beating and a few of us ran into a pet shop to hide. Cardiff were very lively too. The match at Brisbane Rd was quite threatening. As always though, if you wanted to avoid it, you could. If you went looking for it, you could find it.

[Lucky7]

I just remembered actually that the Supporters coach I was on vs Portsmouth away in the FA Cup (0-2 Darren Anderton)was bricked I remember all the horrible little alley ways around the ground as well proper muggers paradise

Aldershot away on a Tue night in the NL no trouble but a horrible walk up the hill and through that little unlit park/woodland

[Ornchurch]

It was just "high spirits"...that and the fact you could get away with it.Most times you never got nicked...if you did it was usually just ejected from the ground, and back in throu5open gate at half time.

I remember in the late 70's at the Coronation Gardens / Brisbane Rd corner behind the terrace there was a cage where they used to put the herberts rather than ejecting them. People used to take the piss out of them as they left the ground.

I don't know if they got released after or taken away and charged.

[Lucky7]

It was just "high spirits"...that and the fact you could get away with it.Most times you never got nicked...if you did it was usually just ejected from the ground, and back in throu5open gate at half time.

I remember in the late 70's at the Coronation Gardens / Brisbane Rd corner behind the terrace there was a cage where they used to put the herberts rather than ejecting them. People used to take the p*ss out of them as they left the ground.

I don't know if they got released after or taken away and charged.

Was that where they put the 1st cabin/room of the Supporters Club?

[Ornchurch]

It was just "high spirits"...that and the fact you could get away with it.Most times you never got nicked...if you did it was usually just ejected from the ground, and back in throu5open gate at half time.

I remember in the late 70's at the Coronation Gardens / Brisbane Rd corner behind the terrace there was a cage where they used to put the herberts rather than ejecting them. People used to take the p*ss out of them as they left the ground.

I don't know if they got released after or taken away and charged.

Was that where they put the 1st cabin/room of the Supporters Club?

I believe so.

[Engine Me]

Back in my teens and early 20s I got involved in quite a bit (mainly travelling with Arsenal) but others too.
I'm not going to go into the stories as I really don't want to. However I am a completely different character now - quite the opposite actually and hate all the glorification of the subject.