Grenfell Inquiry

[Mikero]

Having seen the latest leaks of the interim report I get a sense that the establishment is working behind the scenes to mitigate the blame coming the way of politiciansand others. In the first place why put the emergency services on trial, which is effectively what has happened, before the people responsible who were actually responsible for the fire? The cheif fire officer did herself no favours at the inquiry, but why does the BBC in their news programmes have to mention that she is retiring with a large pension pot? It happens at that level of work, even at the BBC. Anyone in charge of a city-wide organisation would get the same, someone is breifing a line. Now what will happen is that the lawyers for the people who will, quite rightly, end up in court will claim that their clients cannot be blamed for so many deaths because the inquiry says the fire service could have saved more, if not all of them.

Mikero

[Disoriented]

Having seen the latest leaks of the interim report I get a sense that the establishment is working behind the scenes to mitigate the blame coming the way of politiciansand others. In the first place why put the emergency services on trial, which is effectively what has happened, before the people responsible who were actually responsible for the fire? The cheif fire officer did herself no favours at the inquiry, but why does the BBC in their news programmes have to mention that she is retiring with a large pension pot? It happens at that level of work, even at the BBC. Anyone in charge of a city-wide organisation would get the same, someone is breifing a line. Now what will happen is that the lawyers for the people who will, quite rightly, end up in court will claim that their clients cannot be blamed for so many deaths because the inquiry says the fire service could have saved more, if not all of them.

Mikero

Well said. This inquiry is all back to front.

[Thor]

I did find that strange listening in the radio this afternoon. Surely the people who made the cladding, the developers and such like people is who the inquiry should be going after. If the cladding wasn’t so bad they would still be alive today.

[Clive Evans]

If the fire had been in Knightsbridge or Chelsea: the designers, builders, modifiers, Councils etc ; would all be serving life sentences now

[Proposition Joe]

They probably wouldn't. Proper inquiries like this take time.

Be under no illusions though, whoever else is responsible for decisions on the ground or at local levels, the ones that should be asked of central govt for their actions before, during and after, won't be.

[F*ck The Poor & Fat]

They probably wouldn't. Proper inquiries like this take time.

Be under no illusions though, whoever else is responsible for decisions on the ground or at local levels, the ones that should be asked of central govt for their actions before, during and after, won't be.

I’m sure questions will be asked but everybody will be covering their back so it may be impossible to attribute blame to an individual. But the buck ends at the top and if criminal negligence is identified then the bosses pays the price.

I have no doubt the emergency services will learn from the fire and may change procedures accordingly. Should they do I don’t see this as attributing blame but learning from experience, which is right and proper and not an admission of guilt.

[bobo66]

The Fire Brigade told people to stay in their homes. This led to a number of deaths. If they had evacuated they might have been safe.

[Thor]

I don't think anyone is saying that the fire brigade can't learn from this, of course they can. The issue for me revolves around the people that made the products that were engulfed so quickly and devastatingly, the law makers who have approved the product for sale and production in this country on standards which fall below what other countries consider safe.

[Thor]

I think it's in Wales where all new buildings, be it a house or a tower block has to be fitted with water sprinklers, why in the rest of the UK is this not law?

[Proposition Joe]

The Fire Brigade told people to stay in their homes. This led to a number of deaths. If they had evacuated they might have been safe.

It's exactly that simple, isn't it?

[Proposition Joe]

I don't think anyone is saying that the fire brigade can't learn from this, of course they can. The issue for me revolves around the people that made the products that were engulfed so quickly and devastatingly, the law makers who have approved the product for sale and production in this country on standards which fall below what other countries consider safe.

I'm not a building expert or an architect, few of us are, but I was there on the 14th from 9am onwards and the building was still on fire until just before I left late in the evening. I can remember taking a 5 minute break with a colleague and just standing looking at it, all 4 sides still on fire, still absolutely horrified and saying to each other that it just wasn't right that a building would go up like that, it should be just inconceivable. Sadly it wasn't.

[Thor]

I don't think anyone is saying that the fire brigade can't learn from this, of course they can. The issue for me revolves around the people that made the products that were engulfed so quickly and devastatingly, the law makers who have approved the product for sale and production in this country on standards which fall below what other countries consider safe.

I'm not a building expert or an architect, few of us are, but I was there on the 14th from 9am onwards and the building was still on fire until just before I left late in the evening. I can remember taking a 5 minute break with a colleague and just standing looking at it, all 4 sides still on fire, still absolutely horrified and saying to each other that it just wasn't right that a building would go up like that, it should be just inconceivable. Sadly it wasn't.

PJ the trouble is the cutting of corners for profit, the relaxing of standards so that the profit line comes through, the lobbying of the law makers to allow this to happen. I'm not an expert, but I recall reading at the time that other countries banned our particular composition due to the higher propensity to fire.

Many people died needlessly through actions of others for profit. There is nothing wrong with profit, but not at the expense of life.

[Ornchurch]

The Fire Brigade told people to stay in their homes. This led to a number of deaths. If they had evacuated they might have been safe.

Think why they said this.

One is that they were working, correctly, on the basis that each individual flat should be able to contend with the fire thus enabling them to fight that fire.

That the fire spread on the outside of the building was a new scenario for them and one that they will probably learn from but the spread of the fire was down to other people's mistakes.

Second point to consider is that they need access to the stairs to get to the correct levels. This would be severely hampered by residents evacuating and again wouldn't have been an issue if the design was up to scratch.

They were already hampered by items being stored or left in communal and stair areas; whose fault was this?

Similarly the fire was helped to spread internally by these items burning and also because fire doors had been removed; whose fault was this?

This was a major tragedy and a terrible accident. It needs to be learnt from and lessons learned on all sides.

[Thor]

Good post.

[Mikero]

What were also in the way on the stairs and landings were gas pipes left without fire proof casings. Because the electric services put in when the block was built were expensive to use the gas pipework was retro-fitted at the same time as the cladding was done. The only route for this was up the stair well, along the corridors and into the flats through a hole in the wall. Looking at how badly the cladding work was inspected and controlled it is probable that any holes in walls were not properly fire sealed. The gas pipes would have started to sag at about 450 degrees, easily obtainable in that sort of fire, the threaded fittings would then start to leak creating gas flames and making things worse. I cannot understand why the gas was not turned off as soon as the fire brigades arrived, they should have been supplied with building plans by the council before the works began showing where the incoming services shut-offs were, as it was a couple of days after the fire the TV was showing what was obviously a large gas main fire still burning half way up the building.

Mikero

[Thor]

Mikero again it's been done cheaply and haphazardly. I never knew what you just wrote and that's really poor. People need to face justice for this.

Thanks for sharing.

[Article_50]

Dany Cotton will resign by 15th November, I'll put £20 on it to happen.

[NuneatonO's]

10,000+ Fire Brigade jobs CUT nationally since 2010.

When the sh*t hits the fan, let's just blame the people that put their lives at risk, to save ours, eh?

Facts:
Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut.

[Lucky7]

I don't think anyone is saying that the fire brigade can't learn from this, of course they can. The issue for me revolves around the people that made the products that were engulfed so quickly and devastatingly, the law makers who have approved the product for sale and production in this country on standards which fall below what other countries consider safe.

Labour wants to stop upward movement and aspiration and the tories want to encourage it. I guess that’s a big big factor in people’s decisions.

Make your mind up

[Mikero]

"Labour wants to stop upward movement and aspiration and the tories want to encourage it."

I think you will find that Labour wants to make upward movement and aspiration fairer for all and the Tories to continue with elitism driven by how much money you have.

Mikero

[Thor]

No labour want state control of people.

[Ronnie Hotdogs]

No labour want state control of people.

But you’ve not made up your mind who to vote for, right?

[Thor]

Benefits go up under labour and people get caught up in that trap and it becomes less incentivised to work than take benefits. It happens everytime, thats what i was referring to.

[Long slender neck]

Try not to veer off topic.

[Disoriented]

Benefits go up under labour and people get caught up in that trap and it becomes less incentivised to work than take benefits. It happens everytime, thats what i was referring to.

Clearly a swinging voter.